Jordan vs. XX Passive defense Show fit in comp Mini/Maxi Michaels O/E discards grizz: Hi all, and welcome grizz: Chat logs and hand records are stored in your computer for later review. grizz: For information on how to retrieve them, go the BIL homepage or email me. grizz: I teach private individual, pair, and small group lessons. If you would like to know more please email me at Grizz@GrizzBridge.com. grizz: And archives of old sessions are available at GrizzBridge.com, on the Lessons and Archives page located at: http://www.grizzbridge.com/Lessons_and_Archives.php grizz: I had a computer glitch last week, and must ask all of you for some help. grizz: The hand record file from last week's session is corrupted, so I can't post it on the website. grizz: If some one of you can retrieve last week's hands, would you please email the file to me at Grizz@GrizzBridge.com? Thanks! grizz: There will be lots of questions. I want to address them all, but in a manner helpful to all, so please ask them in open chat. grizz: As always i encourage participation by all kibs grizz: So jump right in with a comment, question, or bid at any time, but please do it in open chat grizz: Since I can't always respond to private chat grizz: We do random hands, and all areas of bidding, defense and declarer play are open for comment. grizz: So let's get started. grizz: let's start with what various bids from S would mean grizz: with 10+, S should start with XX wakullaman: 2/1 or sayc grizz: assume 2/1 here, though other systems are fair game too cdt: 5 card sp suit JAF1935: 2!s means he got 3+ but not much points grizz: y, and that pretty describes his hand grizz: nice !ss, but a fistful of losers in the side suits grizz: what would 3!s mean? wakullaman: 4!S and few points JAF1935: 10-12 hcp and 4 !s cards TheoKole: extra weak with shape 4+ spades grizz: y, and with a little more shape grizz: probably a singleton somewhere grizz: and N's rebid? JohnnyHiLo: what were u saying y to? grizz: 4+ and weak grizz: with a LR hand then we would use Jordan 2NT grizz: 10-12 with !s support, probably 4+ grizz: in any case, 2!s is a minimum bid wyoming33: no upper limit with Jordan grizz: right wakullaman: 3!D = rev bergen 4!S and weak points grizz: but no upper limit with XX either guyb2: jordan with only 3? wyoming33: if played over double grizz: difference is that XX tends to deny a fit, but Jordan guarantees one wyoming33: could bid Bergen grizz: sure, could be if we have that agreement wyoming33: can XX with 3 - Jordan guarantees 4 grizz: there are very few S hands worth a 2!s bid that won't make 4 opposite the N hand, so N should crash right into game Chas_P: but some play that XX implies no fit, Eileen. grizz: yes, and with 3 you can correct later wyoming33: if they play that - OK - dont think most do wyoming33: think many XX with 3 and then correct as Grizz said grizz: and some hands Jordan is the best descriptor even with just 3 grizz: i saw Bob Hamman do that just last week wyoming33: wd never do that with only 3 - grizz: and then explain when dummy came down that he had shown 4, but fibbed grizz: ok, put on your Defense hats now and figure out where to go from here as E TheoKole: did he have shape to compensate for the 3 card raise? grizz: y grizz: not great shape, 5332 grizz: but KJx in trumps grizz: small doubleton in unbid major grizz: ok, we have a case here where one hand is strong and the other is weak Chas_P: and Hamman is entitled to poetic license. :) TheoKole: guess it was the honors in spades that swayed him grizz: y, there are times when you must bend the rules a bit, that's what bridge judgment is all about grizz: and few players would question Bob's judgment grizz: back to the D now wyoming33: even he admited it wasnt normal - right? grizz: yes, he made a point of explaining that to the table grizz: when one hand is strong and the other is weak, a passive lead is indicated grizz: because there will be an entry problem in the weak hand grizz: and declarer will be limited in his ability to maneuver grizz: so the prime imperative in that case is not to give away anything you don't have to grizz: so rather than get busy and go active, a passive lead is preferred grizz: the one least likely to cost a trick is trump TheoKole: on the bidding declarer doesn't seem to have problems with trumps grizz: quite right grizz: and on this layout it turns out that an active lead would not hurt grizz: still, the concept is sound grizz: and again, the idea here is not to give anything away grizz: so don't break a new suit unless necessary TheoKole: thats what I try to explain to partner when I pick up his Qxx :) grizz: :) grizz: E has a count on the hand now, and the !d can't hurt grizz: on this hand, an active lead would have been OK grizz: but if dummy had the !CJxx, the active lead of the !CK would have cost a trick grizz: or if dummy had the !dJ, likewise grizz: oh well, there was no magic on this one grizz: any thoughts or questions before we move on? grizz: hmmmm i have had hands like this many times, and had to decide between an offshape X, 1NT with a short suit, or simple overcall grizz: other choice would be X and then bid !Cs, showing a big hand with !c grizz: if you bid 1NT with this, it can be bad news grizz: the ops suit is stopped only once, and ops rate to have entries grizz: and X is worse, with pard expected to bid !s grizz: solution? simple overcall grizz: this X is for takeout grizz: though at this vul it might be a bad idea grizz: but W has a nice hand, and doesn't have to give up on the !h fit grizz: question: grizz: how many of you have an agreement with your regular partner about what this auction means? kyno40: so 3d is not an option ? grizz: instead of X, sure cafie: does the dbl usually mean that u r looking for a fit in another suit? grizz: yes, shows the other 2 suits grizz: in a competitive auction, it is best to show a fit early grizz: so even if E had 4!hs, should show the !c fit grizz: if W has extras as here, he can explore for a secondary fit knowing that !cs is a safe spot to land grizz: point is, 3!h is not a game try in !cs grizz: but a search for a better contract grizz: OK, change over to defense now grizz: what is N's plan? grizz: lol not much to work with over there grizz: but one thing we have seen is that a forcing defense sometimes works when you have 4+ trumps, or think partner might grizz: in that case, lead your side's best suit grizz: try to force declarer to ruff in the long hand and lose control of trumps TheoKole: why the Q grizz: why not? TheoKole: keep high trumps in both hands grizz: ok grizz: might avoid an overruff grizz: lose a !s and 2!hs grizz: no drama on this one eitehr grizz: but the concept of finding a fit before exploring for a better one is sound grizz: any questions? TheoKole: yes, doesnt declarer have to play on hearts grizz: y, always loses 2 grizz: can ruff one high, then pull trump later grizz: so that was a case where you don't want to pull all the trump TheoKole: before pulling 4 trump I mean grizz: right sharon J: how can you tell a new suit isn't a HSGT? grizz: good question grizz: when the overcalled suit is a minor, and later suit is a major, it's pretty clear TheoKole: because he will be left with 1 trump and he has to go through 2 high cards in hearts sharon J: I see, ty grizz: since the major game is one trick cheaper grizz: reverse the suits though, and the second suit is more likely to be a hsgt sharon J: makes sense, ty grizz: but the important thing is that 3!c did not deny !hs grizz: and advancer's first duty is to show a fit if he has one grizz: for latecomers, we talked about the flaws in bidding X or 1NT on this hand grizz: next hand grizz: an elementary question here, but comes up from time to time grizz: 1!c or 1!d? dae: c JohnnyHiLo: 1c hope: 1!C aspiring: 1!c sharon J: c grizz: the Italian method is that 1!d guarantees 4!ds grizz: so without 4!ds or 5M, open the club JohnnyHiLo: 4432? grizz: y, could be a 2 card suit grizz: sometimes you see "5542" on a player's profile deniseb: best minor or alert lol sascha3: we call it "short club" here grizz: that means !S!H!D!C, so 5-card majors, 4+!d, but !cs might be only 2 grizz: but part of bidding a suit is lead direction grizz: would you rather get a !c or !d out if W declares? grizz: well, the answer to that goes back to basics too grizz: the reasons for opening at all are: grizz: 1. get the contract, make the bid and book the score grizz: 2. suggest a profitable sacrifice grizz: 3. direct a lead grizz: 4. interfere with ops' auction grizz: and i would say those are in rank order grizz: so lead direction is not as important as finding the right strain for the contract grizz: so i like 1!d showing 4+ grizz: regardless of the lead direction factor grizz: because the 2 major questions in choice no. 1 are: grizz: 1. what strain? grizz: 2. how high? grizz: and the clarity resulting from 1!d showing a real !d suit overshadows the lead direction bbo_iac: is there a difference between "better minor" and "short club" in terms of what they mean for opps or subsequent bidding? grizz: there is a lot of fuzzy thinking on that subject grizz: i think they are the same bbo_iac: ok thnks grizz: the most important feature of either bid is no 5M grizz: ok, what now for W? kyno40: x sharon J: 2c gamelynx: x? BHNN: x grizz: X would show opening values and 3+ support for all other suits grizz: i don't like Michaels for 2 reasons - grizz: should show a 5-5 or better leonora3: rare but good grizz: so pard knows you have at most 3 in the other two suits grizz: and can backfire at unfavorable vulnerability if you don't maintain discipline grizz: also, i like to play Michaels and Unusual NT as Mini/Maxi grizz: either subminimum, or better than minimum grizz: but not 12-14 or so gamelynx: 10-11? grizz: or even less gamelynx: 9-11? grizz: it's a shape bid, not a points bid gamelynx: k, ty TheoKole: any particular reason why? grizz: sure grizz: if ops open 1!c and you have xxxxxx-xxxxxx-void-x don't you want to get into the auction? TheoKole: of course grizz: if pard has any fit in either major that hand has tremendous playing strength, despite no points grizz: so there really is no minimum points requirement for the unusual bids grizz: only that if you play Mini/Maxi and you are mini, you don't get to bid again grizz: but if you you are 15+ you take another call, and pard knows what the deal is TheoKole: I ment why not the full point range for UnNT and Michaels sharon J: it would be nice to have a session on those conventions grizz: oh - because of that agreement grizz: otherwise you cannot describe your point range grizz: so with the W hand, even if it were 5-5-2-1 with these points, i would bid 1!S grizz: if your unusual bids are limitless, then the auction loses all definition TheoKole: not that I have any objections, but if partner has a hand that is invitational, he can ask with a 2 NT bid for you to descibe your hand grizz: you have a bid to make at your first turn, but what happens later in the auction? grizz: playing this treatment it's easy grizz: as advancer, pard is either subminimum or has extras grizz: and we will clarify later aspiring: with west hand your also not strong enough to x and the correct grizz: also correct grizz: hmmm grizz: 2!h? pass? grizz: X? aspiring: pass grizz: i agree grizz: though 2!h would describe the hand, this is not the time to do that grizz: describing the hand is fine if you have a constructive auction grizz: but when p is silent, bidding on can be very dangerous grizz: especially with a hand like this, with scattered honors grizz: neither suit is very good grizz: the aces are nice, but they don't support honors in the long suits grizz: and as W you don't want to force E to take preference to !S with x or xx grizz: so it's best to pass and live to fight another hand Dianne0516: bf ptnr kills you grizz: lol grizz: ok, what should E lead? dae: S BHNN: 8 spd jdhilts: 3 clubs grizz: N bid NT, so probably has !ss stopped grizz: does that mean that E should not lead one? dae: n DougC43: don't we want to knock out the stopper before W has to start discarding spades? grizz: the only time that you should not lead pard's suit is when you have a good suit of your own, and an outside entry grizz: and E's !c suit is full of holes grizz: without an outside entry grizz: besides, if you lead pard's suit you always win the post mortem :) bbo_iac: :) grizz: but if you don't, and it doesn't work, you may face righteous wrath gamelynx: y the 9? gamelynx: nm doesn't matter grizz: no matter at all grizz: if E had either the T or A he would lead it gamelynx: y grizz: ok, how many of you have sat with the E cards and wondered whether to put up the K? cdt: y gamelynx: me aspiring: no grizz: me 2! BHNN: second low Dianne0516: not in nt grizz: rules are ok, but let's follow through the bridge logic lauriexx: not without a sequence with king at top grizz: would N lead low to the Q if he had the A? grizz: now what? sharon J: d DougC43: !H BHNN: H grizz: W gave a !d signal dae: not break new suit? grizz: had W not given a signal, then E should continue !cs grizz: now a !h signal grizz: magic hand gamelynx->Club: y grizz: but what happens if W does not give the !d signal? bbo_iac: why not a !h signal first? once the A!D is out the suit sets up for declarer and the k!h sits behind the A grizz: fair enough grizz: the rule on signals is that you use the loudest card you can afford aspiring: why take with K there grizz: so the T guarantees the 9 dae: take C small TheoKole: better a negative signal TheoKole: at least I believe :) aspiring: i would still not take the trick setting up rest of norths !c DougC43: i don't understand why more players don't use o/e discards DougC43: seems a shame to waste a high spot on a suit you like grizz: y, and that's why udca is played so widely grizz: or lavinthal or O/E DougC43: when i say o/e i really mean Roman discards where hi even = higher sidesuit, low even = lower DougC43: a combo of o/e & lav grizz: y, using Roman signals an odd card encourages, while even spot card discourages and shows suit preference grizz: well gang, time's up DougC43->Club: means you can signal for a suit any of 3 different ways ! grizz: any last thoughts? bbo_iac: thanks so much Grizz good stuff :) Campus61: tks pete aspiring: thanks for a great lesson pete:) Dianne0516: Thanks Pete :) BHNN: ty vm :) grizz: yes, and that is important in several regards gamelynx->Club: tyvm sharon J->Club: thks Pete, really good freckles36->Club: thanks wyoming33: thanks Pete - we really appreciate your doing these classes grizz: in standard carding, you discard the suit you want returned cdt: Thanks Pete enjoyed the lesson :) TheoKole: thanks Pete great lesson :) bbo_iac: thanks all for coming deniseb: merci :) grizz: but in NT, that sacrifices a length winner DougC43: gjP lauriexx: thanks grizz: we will talk more about carding in future sessions gamelynx: grt grizz: thx all, see you next week sharon J: great JohnnyHiLo: lets see. last week was 3-1 lesson. ill try to retrieve. also do u know bob hamman's id on bbo? DougC43: Pete, can u use Roman in both nt and suit contracts? ->JohnnyHiLo: thx! Bob's wife's name is Petra, and he plays under her identity "Pete" cdt: Thanks Charles for the club:) grizz: sure, O/E works fine both ways grizz: and is more flexible than Lavinthal DougC43: good ... that's what i thought but had heard otherwise hinted grizz: though with either method there are times when you have to fib DougC43: yeah ... when you have only odd spots left in all suite DougC43: suitS grizz: y, that can be embarrassing grizz: but remember, O/E applies only to your first discard DougC43: for sure grizz: after that it reverts to whatever your attitude preference is grizz: either low or high encourages grizz: any other questions? grizz: ok, adios