grizz: Hi all, and welcome grizz: Chat logs and hand records are stored in your computer for later review. grizz: For information on how to retrieve them, go the BIL homepage or email me. grizz: I teach private individual, pair, and small group lessons. If you would like to know more please email me at Grizz@GrizzBridge.com. grizz: And archives of old sessions are available at GrizzBridge.com, on the Lessons and Archives page located at: http://www.grizzbridge.com/Lessons_and_Archives.php grizz: There will be lots of questions. I want to address them all, but in a manner helpful to all, so please ask them in open chat. grizz: As always i encourage participation by all kibs grizz: So jump right in with a comment, question, or bid at any time, but please do it in open chat grizz: Since I can't always respond to private chat grizz: We usually do random hands, and all areas of bidding, defense and declarer play are open for comment. grizz: but i have a special treat today grizz: i played this hand half a lifetime ago, and finally had enough therapy to get over it :) bbo_iac: lol cc1313: lol cdt: :) pegasus1: looks interesting grizz: now what? meshmeshaa: 3nt bbo_iac: nt? grizz: y, 3NT would be the best choice JohnnyHiLo: poor bidding sequence 1h-2h is too weak certagen: pass? pegasus1: A 2/1 game force was given. That's all I know at this point. grizz: lol and it gets worse! pegasus1: Is a misfit. pegasus1: a T$RRIBLE misfit JohnnyHiLo: oh sorrry. dum comment bbo_iac: ohhh owowow grizz: N must have thought that 4!d was a real suit pegasus1: oh my gosh! meshmeshaa: on what basis was all ths bidding done? sswarnendu: if S have bid 4C instead of 4!D.....at least 7!Cs is much better than 7!D:):):) grizz: and N must have figured, "in for a dog, in for an ox" certagen: when there's a misfit, am I allowed inspite of the 2/1 bid to pass since the value of my hand goes down or search for fit in another suit?? grizz: absolutely grizz: let's pick the auction apart grizz: 2!h was GF grizz: so 3!h was not weak, and showed extra length pegasus1: I can't help but think that some # of NT is due here. tmortada: so after all this bidding u chose your shortest combined suit :) grizz: yup :( sascha3: lol:) grizz: so 3NT was probably the last makeable contract in this debacle sswarnendu: i would prefer biiding 3!C instead of 2!S as my hand is less than minimum if i were at S's seat cc1313: what happened to "get out early with a misfit"? grizz: lol i know that now, but this was the hand that taught me :) pegasus1: A game force was bid, is a misfit - Go for NT I say bbo_iac: south has 15hcp.... Dianne0516: How long have you saved it Grizz? grizz: 1985 Dianne0516: lol grizz: so i was not happy with just 3NT, was still looking for some slam pegasus1: It is MIGHTY difficult sswarnendu: 1!S-2!H-3!C-3!H-3!S-?,Now N can visualise the misfit & bid 3Nt i think...... grizz: y, either N or S must bid NT at some point grizz: but we were both novices, and sure that we would miss something better certagen: but I understand that without a fit 3NT is a bad C? grizz: y, only 5 tricks off the top in 3NT! grizz: anyway, the 4!d was intended as a cue grizz: but N thought it might be a suit, or a delayed !h raise, or who knows what else? sswarnendu: interestingly ,5 tricks only in 7!Dxx too..:):) pegasus1: but no trump suit was established at the time of the cue grizz: and ops passed with straight faces until we got to slam grizz: and the play went like this - grizz: ohhhhhh, this can't be good :( sswarnendu: hard to believe such a nightmare hand is a real life one..may God sae our souls fro these hands...or at least let us have the mercy of sitting EW:) grizz: :) pegasus1: Marty Bergen is in the process of writing a new book about slam bidding. I think he would like this hand to be included. Email it to him at mbergen@mindspring.com grizz: lol i already did! pegasus1: Oh, we both are participating! grizz: :) grizz: y, that exercise is what brought this hand back from the grave pegasus1: GREAT. sswarnendu: poor defense at this point.......E must play a trump to restrict NS to 5 tricks dkgrab: ? grizz: so at the end of the carnage we are -4000 pegasus1: a nightmare Dianne0516: You beat me, Grizz. Best I did was -2600 dkgrab: MPs ? grizz: you should have heard the gasps as the traveller was opened around the room! certagen: never again!! JohnnyHiLo: not the worst possible that's 7600- pegasus1: LOL!! sswarnendu: after ruffing the !S A,shouldnt E play a trump? grizz: yup, a 0 is a 0 in mps pegasus1: yes, 0 is 0 grizz: lol and sswarnendu wants another trick! sswarnendu: :) grizz: ok, the moral of the story is: grizz: get out early on a misfit meshmeshaa: and if u play this hand in 3nt? sswarnendu: i said only 5 tricks to them & u gave them 6tricks:( grizz: and another one: grizz: when you are fixed, stay fixed grizz: don't try to save it at that point Dianne0516: Would the bridge gods send you to the flames if you don't bid game over a 2/1 bid? grizz: great question pegasus1: no, not according to Mike Lawrence sswarnendu: no dianne,he wont,but ur p surely will Dianne0516: :( bbo_iac: lol grizz: in nearly all versions of 2/1 1!d-2!c is not absolutely GF grizz: not GF if opener bids and rebids his suit certagen: that's why I 'd have bid my 2nd. suit pegasus1: OK, what would the lead be in a 3NT contract? grizz: but with a 1!s-2!h auction mere mortals are not likely to pass it out in part score sascha3: true grizz: just for fun, let's see how GIB would bid it sswarnendu: !C or !D.......according as S or N is declaring it pegasus1: ok grizz: GIB chooses 3!c grizz: a bid that would not occur to me, must confess :) pegasus1: Marty says bid "6-4-6" I believe w/ this hand pegasus1: Give another choice of trump suit B4 re-bidding the 6-bagger grizz: ok, GIB gets to a reasonable contract, BUT.... grizz: 5-0 split!!! sswarnendu: i would bid 3!C too.....in my partnership,in the next round when i would bid !Ss again......it'll show my 64 along with my non-minimum hcp Dianne0516: why would GIB jump to 5 !c here? grizz: ahhhh, the GIBs are inscrutable grizz: they do not enlighten me about their reasons, only their recommended bids grizz: i don't like a 1-2-3 auction without 17+ sswarnendu: ok Dianne0516: They play 2/1, don't they? grizz: y, bots play 2/1 JohnnyHiLo: they only consider zillions of combinations of possible cards and what they could make bbo_iac: GF and only suit fit? sswarnendu: 5!C is surely ugly......after the 3!C bid......there can be hands where 7!C is untouchable JohnnyHiLo: after some compute period certagen: you mean the sequence 1-2-3 implies 17ptd+? grizz: y, something like 1!s-2!h-3!c should show 17+ by opener grizz: since with a balanced minimum opener would rebid 2NT certagen: I thought that applied to 1H-2Cl-3Cl grizz: anyway, best to take some !Ds now before the mice get to them grizz: hmm grizz: well, another terrible result pegasus1: ugly any way you look at it, in my feeble opinion grizz: but not even in the same league with -4000 Dianne0516: What happens in nt? grizz: a better question sswarnendu: without overruffing.......NS can secure a few more tricks i think......although i am not sure pegasus1: Yes, what is the lead against 3NT grizz: natural !d lead, i think sascha3: i think i would have bid 3H first tho lol grizz: i'm asking GIBs for advice as an experiment here sswarnendu: !H A,!H Q now grizz: y, i like that better too - bots like the !HJ here though sswarnendu: ?????? grizz: better play is what? sswarnendu: continuing !Cs is a better idea.....by now......i have got count of the hands tmortada: now makes sswarnendu: W will be endplayed tmortada: anything makes 9 grizz: sure sswarnendu: continuing !Cs before cashing the !S A was better.....i can endplay W twice grizz: y, i agree - thinking about too many things at once grizz: ok, 3NT is clearly where this one should play pegasus1: Good. grizz: but a larger point grizz: Mike Lawrence says there are two mistakes that players frequently make - certagen: but then it's not true that with a misfit 3NT is not a good Contract!!? grizz: 1. bidding too much with good hands grizz: 2. bidding too little with bad ones pegasus1: right-o grizz: so N and S both fell in love with their good hands here grizz: and neither had the sense to get out while the getting was good pegasus1: Yes, in their Majors grizz: so let's talk about this in terms of hand evaluation grizz: before anybody makes a bid, you make a preliminary evaluation of the hand grizz: and bid accordingly grizz: as the auction proceeds, you must re-evaluate the hand based on the auction grizz: and your preliminary eval may go up, down, or sideways pegasus1: ok will try grizz: on this auction, all signs for both players are downward grizz: so though they both start out thinking slam, grizz: on this misfit they should get out in 3NT on sheer strength and hope it makes! pegasus1: agree grizz: and any bid higher than 3NT should be out of the question entirely grizz: any other thoughts about this one? norrito1: no tks Pete grizz: lol pegasus1: no, but it sure was ugly & difficult! certagen: so game must be reached ? grizz: even after you guys have seen this one, i'll bet you can't stop yourself at the table! cdt: lol Dianne0516: Do you deduct south's hand after 2 bids of hearts by north--if so how much? grizz: look at either N or S and tell me you would quit? Dianne0516: and visa versa for north grizz: i don't know how exactly to subtract points based on the auction grizz: but i would look at playing tricks pegasus1: N announced a game-going hand with the 2 H bid. Things didn't go so well but 3NT was only choice? grizz: S hand has 3-4!s, 1-2!Ds,and 1-2!cs grizz: not necessarily grizz: but we saw what happened to 5!c, down 4 grizz: so in a misfit with strength in both hands, think 3Nt on sheer high card power pegasus1: agree sascha3: yes grizz: since most hands that make 5!c or 5!d also make 3NT grizz: with more margin for error grizz: ok, that's 2 weeks in a row that we have suffered through misfits grizz: so i will bring something else to the table next week sswarnendu: but with any sane break......even these hand can produce 12 tricks in !Cs......so i'd prefer such occasional disaster once in my life to reach some laydown slams grizz: also true grizz: there is one other intangible factor grizz: how delicate is partner's psyche? pegasus1: I'd like to take 9 tricks rather than 11. grizz: that is, will it hurt the partnership to get a really bad result, or does pard have rhino hide? grizz: because the wrong answer there could destroy a partnership pegasus1: I would hope rhino hide & we move on to the next hand. certagen: does this hand fall under what's called "goulash"? fairwell: for sure grizz: it looks 'goulash-ey' grizz: for those who don't know what goulash is, that is dealing the cards 4 at a time without shuffling Dianne0516: Are you saying if you have a ptnr you want to get rid of go to the goulash tourneys? grizz: rofl pegasus1: This hand is really "something". fairwell: horrible niccolla: :):) grizz: y, it certainly was bbo_iac: well at least in a goulash tourney you know what you are getting into grizz: i hate to end the session on this disaster, so let me find another hand pegasus1: I look forward to seeing it as an example n Marty's new book! grizz: lol if so, you saw it here first! grizz: btw, Marty is writing at least 2 new books now pegasus1: It has no name yet as he is beginning the writing of it. It will have to do with slam bidding. grizz: one on slam bidding for beginners, and another for more advanced players pegasus1: I am a devoted Marty fan. fairwell: me too, luv his humor grizz: here is an example of some better slam bidding pegasus1: ditto & can guarnatee that he is a very nice person. sswarnendu: 7!H grizz: the 2NT here is a !d transfer meshmeshaa: why not 2c? meshmeshaa: and then a transfer to D grizz: judgment call, i guess - i didn't ask her sharon J: is this 2NT a conventioin? The bots play that all the time and I always forget to use it when I have Diamonds grizz: 4-suit transfers, that was to !ds grizz: we play 1NT-2!s transfers to !c, and 2NT to !ds sharon J: ok, ty grizz: cuebid auction now niccolla: wd puppet stayman help certagen: in the 4 transfers, 2Nt is only GF. For Slams both in Cl & D. = 2SP....or not? grizz: 2NT might be on a !d bust grizz: not necessarily GF pegasus1: GTG - TY for a great lesson! certagen: ok thaxs grizz: and minor slams are very difficult to find in ordinary NT structures sswarnendu: 1Nt-2!C-2!H-4!C(splinter)-4!D(cue)-4!S(cue)-4NT(rkc)-5NT(even keycard with void)...& 7 !H should be reached grizz: y, i agree grizz: nevertheless, 6!d was worth 10.3, only one other pair found the slam Chas_P->Club: me2 grizz: so it all depends on the view N takes at her first bid grizz: and with a bad !h suit i can't fault the logic here grizz: though 7!h is a superior contract, nobody found it Dianne0516: How about Puppet? tmortada: if !H were 4-1 and !D 3-2 then 7!D makes and 7!H fails by 1 grizz: the field played in 4!h, a couple in 3NT grizz: y, bad splits make either contract a bad one grizz: in 7!d must lose the !DJ sswarnendu: actually,in my regular partnership,it would have been reached even after 2NT(trf to !D)...we play 3!D as super-acceptance..so the aution would be 1N-2N-3!C-3!H(promising 4 ... sswarnendu: card)-4!C...now N will be little bit disappointed ,but nevertheless will reach the grand i think grizz: so we have only 2 hands today, a top and a bottom - on average, it was a ho-hum session! grizz: so accepting the transfer is superaccept? grizz: and do you superaccept on Hx? sswarnendu: y......we play 2nt as either trf to !D or weak both minors..... grizz: maybe we should do a session superaccepts, and maybe one on bergen preaccepts too sswarnendu: no we dont..... bbo_iac: thanks for sharing with us Grizz that first hand was a fun hand to look at since we didn't have to live with the pain :) grizz: Our time is up then, thanks for coming and I'll see you next week. grizz: If anybody needs help retrieving the hand records or chat log, please email me at Grizz@GrizzBridge.com. norrito1: tks Pete tmortada: thx Pete cdt: thanks Pete :) sascha3: thank you grizz:) grizz: I teach private individual, pair, and small group lessons. If you would like to know more please email me at Grizz@GrizzBridge.com. certagen: So this is not part of the 4-transfer Convention? Wanda310: thanks Pete bbo_iac: thanks Pete and thanks all for coming grizz: wait grizz: a question about 4-suit transfers? certagen: y please. grizz: sry, i missed the question certagen: if 2Sp is for slams grizz: in 4-suit transfers, 2!s transfers to !c grizz: with an ordinary hand opener accepts the transfer by bidding 3!c certagen: sorry. I must have it wrong. ty grizz: but with a good hand and good !c fit, opener can show that by making the in-between bid, 2NT grizz: so 1NT-2!s*3!c* shows an ordinary hand sascha3: yes that is how i play it certagen: I see ty grizz: but 1NT-2!s*-2NT*-? shows a good hand a great !c fit grizz: probably Hxxx or HHxx grizz: and a ruffing value grizz: and that probably triggers a cuebid slam sequence certagen: ty sswarnendu: ya,that's how it is played normally.....i am the culprit here:)....we reversed the meaning of in-between bids & bidding the transferred suit grizz: so if responder was on the fence about partial vs. game, or game vs slam, that can tip the balance grizz: important thing is that you and pard are on the same page :) grizz: I am planning three different one-day courses on Defense, Declarer Play and Balancing, so if you are interested in any or all of these topics please drop me a line at ... grizz: Grizz@GrizzBridge.com Dianne0516: So 2nt is always a superaccept to a m transfer? grizz: Thanks for your interest and participation, and I hope to see you next week. certagen: definitely. sascha3: bye grizz: Grizz out