bbo_iac (Lobby): => Club: Grizz table mow open in club.Discussion of random hands, bidding play and defense. All welcome to participate ->anegada: hiya! ->bbo_iac: hiya! ->cdt: hiya! bbo_iac: can't type but my heart is pure ->ladygolf: hiya! anegada: glad to be able to see u tonight :) ->wyoming33: hiya! bbo_iac: hi :) ladygolf: hi:) cdt: Hi Pete:) grizz: Hi all, and welcome wyoming33: hi ho:) grizz: Chat logs and hand records are stored in your computer for later review. grizz: For information on how to retrieve them, go the BIL homepage or email me. grizz: I teach private individual, pair, and small group lessons. If you would like to know more please email me at Grizz@GrizzBridge.com. grizz: And archives of old sessions are available at GrizzBridge.com, on the Lessons and Archives page located at: http://www.grizzbridge.com/Lessons_and_Archives.php grizz: There will be lots of questions. I want to address them all, but in a manner helpful to all, so please ask them in open chat. grizz: I encourage participation by all kibs grizz: So jump right in with a comment, question, or bid at any time, but please do it in open chat grizz: ... since I can't always respond to private chat grizz: We usually do random hands, and all areas of bidding, defense and declarer play are open for comment. grizz: well gang, what do you think here? grizz: let's do it backwards grizz: if ops bid 4!h, would it be right to bid 4!s? pfatseas: no grizz: hard to say for sure ladygolf: y grizz: but it's almost always right to bid 4!s over 4!h fairwell: well, north has singleton, if brave ?? ->ladygolf: :) grizz: y, singleton in ops' suit is a huge plus pfatseas: are we kibing in south onlhy grizz: take a look at the N hand grizz: N is a passed hand, and pard make a preemptive jump overcall grizz: so with a !s fit, singleton in ops' suit and not enough defense to beat 4!h, then 4!s is almost mandatory! fairwell: true, but he knows south must have shortage in other suits grizz: y, and N has ruffs in !hs grizz: so if ops bid 4!h, it is correct to compete to 4!s grizz: on a lucky hand it makes, and even if not and it's doubled, it will likely be down less than the value of a game the other way grizz: and ops by bidding 3!s have committed themselves to 4!h anyway fairwell: cd s bid 5's here? grizz: y! grizz: stealing the 4NT bid from ops TheoKole: do you have any "rule" that you use for bidding at the 5 level if opps sacrifice like this? Or is it on a hand by hand basis? grizz: i'm afraid that is strictly a judgment call, and a hand-by-hand analysis TheoKole: I was afraid that you would say that. :) grizz: but E is undeterred here, and has launched into a cuebid sequence grizz: y, sry :( grizz: btw, i have a comments about rules and judgment too grizz: most hands in bridge are "judgment" hands grizz: that is, there are flaws, gray areas, op interference, or other feature that make it other than a "textbook" hand fairwell: how about s bidding 5d? grizz: so the real key to good bridge is developing good judgment TheoKole: if you decide to bid over an obvious sacrifice, do you try to get a lead directing bid in? grizz: the rules are only there as guidelines, to help you understand the game while you develop that judgment grizz: great point, Theo grizz: and there are some conventions that cater to that line of thinking too TheoKole: in case opps sacrifice again grizz: but looks like S will be on lead here, so whose lead is he directing? lol grizz: ok, now we choose between compete or pass TheoKole: well if opps bid 5 !S, the lead would be with west. grizz: or compete +, with a lead-directing !s raise grizz: ops bid 5!s and play it? in this auction? TheoKole: most likely doubled grizz: ok, back to reality :) grizz: NS should feel that they have accomplished their job by forcing ops to the 5 level loubel: how does n s know if east's 5!C is cue or suit? grizz: and N is faced now with the same decision jaymac: Does W 3!S bid mean "I have values, keep on bidding"? grizz: the suit was established as !hs when W made the 3!s cuebid grizz: that is, 3!s was a game forcing !h raise grizz: in competition jaymac: ty grizz: whatever your strong raise was without comp, it all changes when ops interfere kyno40: Pete could you bid 5 d with S and lets see what happens pl. grizz: now you have another bid available, the cuebid grizz: so the cuebid is now LR+, and other bids now have more definition grizz: ok, let's try it kyno40: ty grizz: now what? kyno40: 5s grizz: let's talk a few hypotheticals here grizz: what would X mean? fairwell: penalty riondel: l grizz: y, N expects to be able to set the contract, but what else does the X mean? TheoKole: a very strong suggestion for penalty to partner qwyz: lead driecting; lead suit of the stronger hand grizz: if a pair bids game, then game is obviously on grizz: so if you set a slam, it will be a top board, losing to those pairs who stopped in game TheoKole: wasnt that the point of the 5 !C bid? grizz: and what is the upside to doubling a slam? grizz: 50 or 100, depending on vul grizz: and the downside to doubling? fairwell: well, if they make !!! grizz: might give ops enough information about strength and distribution to make the contract kyno40: but if no !d lead Gib can make 6 H ? grizz: so there is a very special message when you double a slam grizz: if you have bid and later double, it says it's ok to lead the suit you bid grizz: if your pard bids and later you double, that means it's ok for him to lead his own suit grizz: if you both bid and one of you doubles, lead the suit of the stronger hand - that's where the entries are grizz: in a slam auction, X is usually a Lightner double, asking for an unusual lead grizz: commanding pard NOT to make the obvious lead grizz: usually suggesting shortness somewhere, and asking pard to work it out grizz: or honors in dummy's first bid suit grizz: so X here would forbid a !s lead grizz: and rely on pard to find the right side suit grizz: is that what we want to do here? fairwell: yes grizz: forbidding a !s lead is not clearly the right thing to do grizz: they might be split 2-2, and pard might have the A grizz: and if N does X for an unusual lead, there is only a 50-50 chance he will get it right grizz: the point is, double of a slam contract has a special meaning grizz: therefore, failure to double also has some negative implications grizz: if N does not X, then S will usually lead a !S grizz: on this layout, the slam makes grizz: because ops win, pull trump, and pitch losing !ds on !cs fairwell: but with d bid, doesn't that give pard a clue what to lead? kyno40: YES grizz: the !d bid does muddy up the picture somewhat TheoKole: south is on lead grizz: and here bridge logic would seem to forbid a !s lead, and tend to request a !d lead fairwell: I wd demur re. club bid tho, seeing what north has, I'd take it as void grizz: !c can't be right on this auction, E has either A or void grizz: in all likelihood grizz: though we have seen the bots make some very strange bids! fairwell: that's for sure grizz: OK, i like X here after that analysis grizz: to warn away from a !s lead, and tend to ask for !d grizz: :) maysie: aHHHH lol - grizz: this one makes easily on any other lead fairwell: can u use lightner other than in slam bidding grizz: but the analysis of what the X would or would not mean is critical grizz: Lightner is generally used either against slams or NT games fairwell: ty grizz: vs slams it usually means 3rd hand can ruff something grizz: and pard needs to figure out what that is grizz: since ops presumably have enough stoppers to make a voluntarily bid slam fairwell: sure would like to use it in nt when my pard leads a 3 and all I have is lowly 4 grizz: and vs NT it asks for dummy's first bid suit fairwell: pl explain grizz: difficult to explain without an example hand fairwell: ok ty grizz: but if the auction goes something like: grizz: RHO opens, and it goes 1!D-P-1!s-P- grizz: 1NT-P-3NT-P-P-X grizz: that X asks for a !s lead grizz: and pard will make it on something like !SAQJTxxx kyno40: so realy the 6 h bid was not so bad as it first looked grizz: no, not at all paruljain6: the other day i had opened bidding w/1S and opps ended up in 3nt...my p was supposed to lead..he didn't lead spades thinking bhe wpould be finessing me...but that's the only lead ... paruljain6: that works..he sad i should dbl their contract...that would tell him to lead spasdes..is that true grizz: on any lead but a !d, it rolls ->paruljain6: yes - if you bid and later double, that says the lead is OK paruljain6: ok..ty grizz: any other questions? TheoKole: a small point on your example hand for Lightner X vs 3NT grizz: ok TheoKole: usually you should lead your highest card grizz: yes grizz: force out a stopper, at the very least TheoKole: whatever you holding so declarer cannot duck the trick to your p grizz: unblock the suit, and show pard where the high cards are grizz: y grizz: if dummy in the example has Kxxx, ops want the lead to stay in the West for another !s lead grizz: if at all possible fairwell: wd the double confuse pard? grizz: lol that is always possible :) grizz: but here are the rules on doubles: grizz: 1. If neither defender has bid, ops bid a NT game or slam and partner doubles, lead dummy's first bid suit. grizz: 2. If only partner bid and later doubles, lead his suit. grizz: 3. If only you bid and later partner doubles, lead your own suit. grizz: 4. If both you and partner have bid and partner doubles, lead the suit of the stronger hand - that is where the entries are. grizz: 5. If ops have not bid any suits (e.g. 1NT-3NT) and partner doubles, lead your SHORTER major. fairwell: great ty vm grizz: one other grizz: 6. If you have bid, partner will be on lead and you want him to lead your suit, double. cdt: Does this come up very often? grizz: more often than you may suspect grizz: because if you don't know the rules, you won't be looking for lead-directing doubles grizz: i use them a lot grizz: against artificial bids, frequently grizz: like Jacoby transfers, Bergen raises, splinters, etc grizz: but they are doubly useful grizz: because if you know them and use them a lot, then FAILURE to X has a message too grizz: the negative implication can be just as powerful as a bid grizz: if you and pard are on the same page fairwell: hopefully :) grizz: on the subject of lead directing doubles, is this an opportunity for one? grizz: no grizz: S has no reason think either that 1. the contract can be set, or 2. that the !d lead is a killer kyno40: 3 trump grizz: so pass in temp grizz: tempo grizz: vs. 6NT or any grand slam, defense should be Passive grizz: defenders must above all not give any extra tricks on the lead grizz: so this is precisely the worst time to go Active, unless you have a cashing AK grizz: Passive is the order of the day grizz: so a sequence lead, or a worthless suit is indicated grizz: try not to give W a free finesse grizz: and give away as little info as possible about shape and strength Ishudav: On the subject of leading an unsupported A against a small slam, is this a judgement call also? grizz: so what would be a good Passive lead for N? fairwell: c grizz: depends somewhat on whether its NT or a suit paruljain6: J!D grizz: in either case, the A is likely your entry Ishudav: ok thx grizz: so ordinarily try to develop a slow trick somewhere, then use the A as an entry to cash the slow trick later grizz: but this is a gross glittering generality grizz: the auction may tell you that ops have a long running suit maysie: 6H? grizz: in that case, it may be best to lead the A and look for weakness grizz: the danger is that the A may get ruffed grizz: ok, let's get back to the lead problem here Ishudav: and set up a K. Yes, I see. grizz: E has a huge hand, opening 1!d and then reversing to !h grizz: that shows 17+ grizz: and W showed 10+ in SAYC, or 12+ in 2/1 grizz: bots play 2/1, btw grizz: N has 6, so can't expect S to have a lot grizz: but N has possibilities of defensive tricks in both black suits grizz: so what leads are unlikely to give declarer anything he is not entitled to? grizz: !s lead is out, W bid NT and that shows a !s stopper jaymac: !H alexiss: red suits Ishudav: !dJ grizz: maybe a tenace grizz: and W has 5+!cs, also probably a tenace grizz: so the blacks are out grizz: W also denied a !h fit grizz: by preferring back to !d after E bid 2!h grizz: but tended to deny a !s stopper too grizz: though the later 3NT bid sure implied one grizz: E has !ss, for sure grizz: and the !SQ may be finessible grizz: or it might be a 2-way guess grizz: in either case, the !s lead is terrible grizz: so we have choices narrowed down to !h or !d kyno40: sorry the moral of the last hand without the dbl. is actually out of 100 times played it would make 99 times it is amazing pfatseas: why are clubs out ->kyno40: y, the X was magic there! grizz: N has a likely !c trick grizz: but W is long in !cs grizz: and surely has a tenace pfatseas: east is 4-4-4-1 emmee: did well? grizz: so the !c lead could easily surrender a trick pfatseas: north will always get his club K grizz: and the objective here is not to do that grizz: y, but does that make it a good lead? bilmanager (Lobby): => Club: !D!D Transtasman Encounter Tourney #475 Pairs - Free - starts in 4 hrs 30 min from now -Beginners encouraged - All welcome - Please look at the partnership desk -!D!D pfatseas: safe because west with 5 min clubs, east 1 south 2 wont go away in west grizz: the positional value of the K behind the !C bidder makes it a safe trick, but not necessarily a safe lead grizz: also, notice the !c spot cards grizz: that !c8 might be huge grizz: if W must play the suit pfatseas: I dont think they can make 6 NT without the club suit grizz: point is, the !c lead could surrender the 8 as a winner by giving W a free finesse grizz: and that is precisely what we are trying to avoid grizz: so back to the red suits kyno40: the only lead would be ! but how can you come to that conclusion pl. ? grizz: more analysis of the auction kyno40: !d niccolla: diamond grizz: E has precisely 4!hs grizz: and probably 4+!ds pfatseas: would it be easier to play south for a 7 or nine of clubs and a higher honor anywhere else? niccolla: re doubleton in d i wd bid d grizz: sure, but that may surrender a trick if S doesn't have both those cards pfatseas: he only needs one doesnt he? fairwell: not fussy about ht lead tho, cos east can play his hts on the clubs grizz: if S has an honor, the only useful one would be in a red suit fairwell: seems d wd be best lead I reckon grizz: yup, i agree grizz: then the question is, what do you lead from 3 small? grizz: and there is no common agreement on that anegada: mud grizz: some lead low, so pard knows you don't have a doubleton fairwell: sm grizz: some lead high, so pard knows you don't have an honor grizz: some lead middle, with a leg on either side of the fence :) anegada: lol grizz: and others lead middle for a different reason grizz: if you play 2/4 leads, then you lead small from 4+ to an honor, or second highest from no honor grizz: and so there is a small but detectable difference between MUD and 2/4 grizz: MUD being Middle, Up, Down grizz: leading the middle one, then following with the top, etc grizz: ok, on signals now grizz: when Attitude is either obvious or irrelevant, then you give Count grizz: and when following to declarer's lead, also give Count grizz: hmm fairwell->Club: vn grizz->Club: now that's really embarrassing lol grizz: let's try it again maysie: over take 10D with QD and lead a club back???? kyno40: overtake the !D and pl. !c ? grizz: y grizz: W has something up his sleeve here wyoming33: gid says it makes grizz: with solid !cs, W would not be fooling around like that in !ds kyno40: :) grizz: wd, bots wyoming33: :) grizz: so long as gib guesses right in !s, and !ds break 3-3, this one is untouchable grizz: then they only need one !c, and they have the A fairwell: suppose the contract was played by east, any difference? grizz: a little different lead analysis maysie: Cheers -gotta go. TY! kyno40: how about a !d lead grizz: probably a !c lead from S it E plays it grizz: !d? bad idea kyno40: ok grizz: 1. e probably has a tenace grizz: 2. S has only Qxx fairwell: pl explain why w bid 3d grizz: so if E has AKJ, that gives away a trick grizz: click on the bid for explanation fairwell: ok ty grizz: so !c lead is left grizz: and would make E guess right away, before he knows anything about the hand grizz: splits, honor location, etc grizz: any other questions? grizz: OK then, our time is up now, thanks for coming and I'll see you next week. grizz: If anybody needs help retrieving the hand records or chat log, please email me at Grizz@GrizzBridge.com. ladygolf: thanks Pete anegada: thx pete wyoming33: thank you Dianne0516: Thanks Grizz cdt: Thanks Pete enjoyed :) grizz: I teach private individual, pair, and small group lessons. If you would like to know more please email me at Grizz@GrizzBridge.com. niccolla->Club: thx grizz: Thanks for your interest and participation, and I hope to see you next week. dotfl->Club: Thanks Pete Ishudav->Club: Great. Thx Pete. grizz: Grizz out.