Chat log of Bridge Base Online session for grizz starting at: Sat Aug 11 14:15:28 2007


BILManager (Lobby): => Club: !D!DGrizz's Lesson Table is now open in the BIL. The Lesson will begin in about 10 mins. All members are invited to attend this very informative lesson!H!H
grizz: Hi all, while we are waiting are there any questions from past sessions?
jaf1935: hi !h
->jaf1935: :)
Wanda310: hi:)
->Wanda310: :)
Wanda310: !H
grizz: while we are waiting, let's just do some bidding
ritzygal: hi
grizz: hi
LadyStar17: hi
grizz: what should we do here?
jaf1935: 2 !d
grizz: i like it
biscaCV: 2nt
grizz: another good idea
PedroG: is 2D NMF?
grizz: i like nt better, because 2!d suggests a more unbalanced hand
jaf1935: true
wyoming33: agree
grizz: if you are playing NMF, then 2!D would show 5!s, 9+ hcp and a !d suit
navit: hi:)
ydannac: need to be in game
grizz: y, but west does not know that
grizz: and does not want to be in game opposite a minimum
ritzygal: explain nmf
grizz: ok
BILManager (Lobby): => Club: !D!DGrizz's Lesson Table is now open in the BIL. The Lesson will begin in about 5 mins. All members are invited to attend this very informative lesson!H!H
grizz: this is a 2/1 treatment, used to show a 5 card major after 1m-1M-1NT
grizz: 2om shows a 5 card major, says nothing about the om
jaf1935: nice hint !h
wyoming33: right - but E did not open a minor
grizz: right
grizz: but some players extend the concept to this auction
grizz: it's a matter of partnership agreement
wyoming33: so any minor after 1NT is NMF
grizz: East has a 1NT opener with 5!hs, so is happy to push to game
grizz: only an UNBID minor
wyoming33: there is no bid minor here
grizz: so 1!c-1!h-1NT-2!d is NMF
wyoming33: yes - but you said can use here
grizz: or 1!D-1!h-1NT-2!c is NMF
delplata: NMF?
jaf1935: newminor forcing
grizz: right 1!H-1!S-1NT-2m CAN BE nmf by partnership agreement
Dianne0516: So west would have to have a 5-cd M to bid it here?
grizz: if they played that as nmf, then west must have 5!s to bid 2m, correct
grizz: any ideas for a lead?
PedroG: A!h
super01: 5c
jaf1935: !c 5
bluehi: 10dai
wyoming33: 5!C
arrow: !C5
dee_dee_20: !c
navit: 5!c
rojune: 5 club
delplata: 2 of C, 
bluehi: wronh hand
grizz: with that !h holding and !hs bid by RHO, !h lead is wrong
bluehi: 5c
Dianne0516: 5 !c behind easts heart holdings
PedroG: yep, just realized that after I lead it
grizz: S rates to take 3 !h tricks if he never leads them
grizz: and the AK will be entries if the !c can be established
grizz: there are some other clues
dee_dee_20: your longest suit   pd is bound to have at least 2
grizz: W bid !s, and E ran to NT
grizz: so E has 2 or 3
grizz: W did not rebid !S, so probably has only 4
grizz: which means that N has 4 or 5
grizz: but S has 11 hcp, so even if N does have !S, he will have no entry
biscaCV: south hs 11hcp   partner cannot hv much
grizz: therefore
jaf1935: but this is for a suit game as i think
grizz: it makes sense for S to establish his own suit, !CS
grizz: put on your declarer hat for a minute, and tell me whether E should duck
Teddymom: has your lesson started?  I must have missed the first few minutes, now i am lost
->Teddymom: np, i was just killing time
dee_dee_20: yes
drgarie2xx: please email hands after lesson
robzim: no his k would be eaten by the ace and he'd only get 1!c trick
bluehi: n
wyoming33: why
delplata: no, a second C eats up both the K and A
->drgarie2xx: ok, please email so i don't forget
wyoming33: is there any reason -
ydannac: no for has A and then AK will fall together
jaf1935: no
super01: y
bwd1: y
grizz: is there a killing shift that E is afraid of?
jaf1935: two cards in w and east with the 2 highest honours
wyoming33: ha 2 !C tricks - why duck - not going to get 3
dee_dee_20: yes !h shift
grizz: right
Blaster: hi to all
grizz: Hi everybody, thanks for attending another of a series of lessons on Defense.  
navit: loses2 h!
grizz: Here we go with the usual stuff.
grizz: Here we go with the usual stuff.
grizz: Chat logs and hand records are stored in your computer for later review.  For information on how to retrieve them, go the BIL homepage or email me.
BILManager (Lobby): => Club: !D!DGrizz's Lesson Table is now open in the BIL  Topic today is "DEFENSE".  All members are invited to attend this very informative lesson!H!H
grizz: I teach private individual, pair, and small group lessons.  If you would like to know more please email me.
wyoming33: :) - guess not going to finish this
grizz: we will come back to it   :)
grizz: My old email at grizz.den@gmail.com still works, but I have a new one too, Grizz@GrizzBridge.com.
grizz: The new website is almost up, but not ready for prime time .  The site is still under development.
grizz: If you have any ideas about what you would like to see on the site, please let me know.  
grizz: I plan to use it as an archive for lesson chat logs and hand records, but there must be other things you folks would like to see there too.
krh1205 (Lobby): May I watch
grizz: We have had a few good ideas already, thanks!
->krh1205: sure, if you belong to the BIL c'mon in
grizz: Please email me with any ideas at Grizz@GrizzBridge.com.
grizz: There will be lots of questions.  I want to address them all, but in a manner helpful to all, so please ask them in open chat.  
grizz: I cannot respond to private chat during a lesson.
isabable: csan you run group lessons there
grizz: We will be playing actual hands and putting into practice all the concepts that we have been talking about.
grizz: The hands will all be NT hands or at least NT auctions, and I will continue to concentrate on defense.
->isabable: good suggestion, we are working on it
grizz: So think about the auction, opening lead, 3rd hand play, location of honors and hand counts around the table.  
navit: i get confused on when to duckon opening lead
grizz: I will sit in all 4 seats but ask for advice from all the kibs on bids, plays, plans, signals and so forth.
isabable: great idear 
grizz: We will talk about declarer play a little more as well.
dee_dee_20: the rule of 7 is good to follow but not always:)
biscaCV: east needs !h tricks to make bid    so why is a !h shift bad  
grizz: Back to the random hand that we were looking at
rwin: if my p bids a suit and nt behind him is his suit a bad ld?
Blaster: lady star, i did that
grizz: excellent question
grizz: when pd bids a suit and RHO bids NT, that suggests a stopper or 2
grizz: nevertheless, you should lead pd's suit UNLESS:
grizz: 1.  you have a GOOD suit of your own, and
grizz: 2. you have entries to cash the established tricks
delplata: who bid NT must have stopper in your bid suit, therefore you frequently finnesse p if you lead the suit
grizz: otherwise leads p's suit, it's always safe
grizz: that's one way to look at it
Blaster: i will ge back go to my name
rwin: tu clears my mind  i ld if i havce entries 
eire1: k
grizz: the other way is correct - leading the suit knocks out declarer's stoppers while we still have entries  :)
grizz: besides, if you lead pd's suit and it's wrong, you still win the post mortem   :)
robzim: back to your original question  is there any reason to duck this trick?  he needs all the tricks he can get
rwin: my club says if u dont you walk home lol
Blaster: how do i do that
dee_dee_20: but if you only have a singleton  in pds suit is it not better to establish your long suit?
grizz: lol
rwin: wdnt ld a sing
grizz: back to the 2 rules - good suit, and outside entries, otherwise lead pd's suit even with a stiff
Blaster: k
grizz: the only ironclad excuse for not leading pd's suit is a void
wyoming33: unless you want to find a new pard
grizz: yup
grizz: so back to the action
grizz: pretend you are E here
rwin: sometimes good idea lol
grizz: count your tricks 
Blaster: will do wished you would teach how to play a mini
grizz: 2!s
dee_dee_20: I would duck
grizz: 2!d
grizz: 2!c
jaf1935: !c k
grizz: only 6 top tricks, so we need to develop 3
grizz: extra 1 or 2 in !d
grizz: maybe 1 or 2 in !h
Blaster: , i dont have it but thinking about, it
grizz: maybe even a !s
nome: I am glad that your call woke me up:)
Teddymom: i would not duck
SveinR: you have 3 in!d..
grizz: we can take a !d finesse
wyoming33: right 3!D gave J109
robzim: sorry missed the 8 on the table :(
grizz: but before that, we should cash a top honor and look at the discards
wyoming33: have - not gave
grizz: !d8 is a big card
jaf1935: !s 4
super01: but then cant take spade finr
jaf1935: !s j
grizz: what are the chances that the !D8 is stiff?
dee_dee_20: very little
grizz: i agree
rq4mulae: 10%
grizz: alas, we don't always have the perfect cards for signals
SveinR: can also play low !s to J!s
grizz: right, and the !DT is now an entry for that
grizz: any reason not to cover?
grizz: nope
SveinR: +1
super01: -1
grizz: no way to make now
SveinR: :)
SveinR: but best try?
grizz: y, no future in trying for !h tricks
wyoming33: what did gib say
grizz: don't know, gib was not turned on
grizz: can somebody else do that?   and report back?
wyoming33: i sometimes ask just to see
grizz: ok, i won't slow things down here
grizz: any comments about that defense?
grizz: ok on to the next then
krh1205: was it the lead or covering the s that set the trick
Grasti: East make taking with the K!c?
wyoming33: double dummy - click on red GIB button and it tells you if your bid will make
grizz: both were important
jaf1935: !s 1
grizz: any ideas here?
PedroG: pass
Dianne0516: pass
super01: p
grizz: with 4Js i would pass
SveinR: 1NT
grizz: but with an ace, i would keep it open
bwd1: 1nt
Dianne0516: thought you meant east
jaf1935: too little less than 5 hcp p
grizz: pass and pray
SveinR: why not open with 1nt
dee_dee_20: pass
PedroG: 18
grizz: 2 reasons - 18 hcp, and good 5 card !s suit
grizz: what should W lead now?
grizz: any clues on the bidding?
dee_dee_20: !c
robzim: I would hate to be the one playing the NT with that hand and only 4 points! :)
jaf1935: !c 9
grizz: lol    true!
grizz: let's think about the auction
grizz: N did not rebid !s, but did rebid NT, so prob. has only 5
PedroG: spades may be 5-2 or 5-1 but never 5-3
grizz: S 0, 1 or 2!ss
grizz: and E rates to have some entries
grizz: i think it's a coin flip here between !s and !c
grizz: but the 5 card !c suit tips the decision that way, with the !d entry
jaf1935: !s not in nt
grizz: right
jaf1935->Club: why not !c 9
grizz: 9 would deny an honor in our methods
jaf1935: aha excellant reason thx
grizz: 2 shows that W started with 5
grizz: is NOT showing suit preference
grizz: ack
grizz: lol      this is dreadful
SveinR: y
Dianne0516: Glad you are playing it and not me :)
grizz: lol
grizz: last time in hand, so must take the !s finesse now
PedroG: aiai
grizz: lol
PedroG: what happens when you give 1NT with 4HCP :)
grizz: :)
SveinR: !HBACK
jaf1935: nice bid and play
grizz: uff da
grizz: lol
SveinR: !h back give you 1 more..
grizz: let's try that again
wyoming33: gib says should be down 3 or 4
grizz: what should W do?
wyoming33: balancing X
robzim: pass he's only got 7 points
anco: x
grizz: this is a common position
wyoming33: shd have 4!H to double though
grizz: with shortness in N's bid suit, is seems that E has !s length, some pts. but couldn't bid
grizz: question is whether W should balance
wyoming33: yup
grizz: and here is a tip
ydannac: how do you get on Gib how many tricks it goes down?
grizz: 'borrow' a King or so from p, add to your hcp, and with 10+ you can bid
alexiss: you shd try to avoid letting opps play on 1-level
grizz: right
grizz: and p knows that you 'borrowed' a king, so won't go crazy
Teddymom: how does he know?
grizz: should N do something now?
SveinR: no
wyoming33: pray? no
grizz: because of the tip i just gave you
Teddymom: why not overcall, he has 5 card suit?
anco: xx
grizz: always assume that pd is a K light for his bid, unless he keeps on bidding later
SveinR: but why x with 7pts...
grizz: because W 'borrowed' 3 from E, giving him 10
SveinR: ok
grizz: and he has nice shape, and he is white vs. red
robzim: they traded cards under the table :)
grizz: 1NT or 2!C?
Dianne0516: What is the min west must have to balance?
grizz: :)
SveinR: :)
nome: kn
nome: ow evertthing just ask
grizz: if i'm west at this vul, i would balance on 3-5
wyoming33: now here is my problem?  I say E passes with such good !S - but say they not so good
Dianne0516: And vul?
grizz: 5+
grizz: depending on shape
grizz: far less than most intermediates think they need
SveinR: E 1more !h and just 4!s?
jaf1935: yes 2/3 or 3/5 and a spot card
grizz: E has to be thinking about passing 
Dianne0516: Hard to set a 1 bid, isn't it?
grizz: with S broke, his stuff sitting behind the big hand, and W big enough to bid
jaf1935: no i would not pass as less than 6 cards in !s
grizz: but darn hard to set a 1 level contract
jaf1935: true
grizz: furthermore, if you can set one, you probably make game somewhere
jaf1935: but 1 nt
grizz: might come down to a 'state of the match' bid - if late and behind, might gamble on a big set
super01: i would bid 1nt
grizz: but risky
alexiss: i wd bid 2!c...the strong opp sits before me...and i need a lot of finesses...better a suit contract
jaf1935: true
grizz: rates to be a winner here
grizz: or 2!c
grizz: but not pass
jaf1935: but a t/o double vers a passed hand id also risky
grizz: any more thoughts on nt vs. 21c?
grizz: i don't like the stiff !d
jaf1935: true
Wanda310: y
Teddymom: i would not bid NT with singleton diamond
grizz: right
wyoming33: balancing bid - not enough players balance
jaf1935: true
grizz: back to north, does he have anything to say now?
grizz: your average intermediate would bid 2!s
grizz: and get Xed and crushed by good defense
wyoming33: why - his pard doesnt even have 6 pts
grizz: let's play it out
jaf1935: 2nd hand low
grizz: the !d is not a good lead when holding long trumps
robzim: why rebid a 5 card suit?  especially when you're vulnerable and your partner passed 
grizz: E should be looking to force N to ruff, not lookinf for ruffs himself
wyoming33: want to make dec use up his trump
SveinR: !C
grizz: right
wyoming33: play !C
jaf1935: true good hint
jaf1935: !h
grizz: sigh
grizz: interesting position here
grizz: E guarantees 2!s tricks by endplaying declarer
grizz: does not help to duck
jaf1935: !s t
grizz: does not help to win
wyoming33: nothing to do
jaf1935->Club: 1 down is not the worst bridge
SveinR: why not pass 2!c
grizz: so that's what can happen when you 'fall in love' with a nice hand like this and pd is too broke to bid
vinny3147: Don't know him very well, but have kibbed him when he plays a lady on here who I know who also teaches.  He plays very well
wyoming33: gib says down 2 with gd defense
grizz: y, that was best defense
ydannac: how do you get GIB answer when you click on GIB>>>
grizz: be truthful now, how many of you would pass 2!c with the N hand?
robzim: I would  partner had nothing and NS are vulnerable 
jacquiek: ithink i'd be nt
wyoming33: I wd - you know you have less than half the points - 
grizz: hand evaluation is a fluid concept
eire1: to open you should have a second bid - what is north's second bid?
SveinR: I would
Teddymom: not me
grizz: you start out with X number of points
Dianne0516: Wouldn't it be up to south to bid here, if anything?
grizz: and the hand valuation goes up, down, or may stay the same depending on the auction
Teddymom: 2NT
grizz: this hand is worth about 12 in this auction
jaf1935: North got 20 hcp nearly
grizz: the Js are dead
grizz: the Qs may be dead
wyoming33: right
grizz: so N needs a lot of discipline to pass 2!c, but that is the correct bid
krh1205->Club: what if s had 4 little s but only 4 pts would he bid or ont
grizz: EW only make a partial here
grizz: but even if they make game, 500 wins
wyoming33: wd bid if had 1 more !S
grizz: y, move 1 card to !s from another suit and i would make another call too
grizz: any comments or questions?
wyoming33: except I should be suspicious that E has bunch of my !S
jaf1935: no
grizz: exactly
grizz: which brings us to another point
grizz: E passed.   should E have bid?
Dianne0516: n
grizz: nope
grizz: !s length means 2 things
jaf1935: sometimes i do as 7 cards can make
robzim: he had no suit other than the one bid  knows N has 5 of them  
grizz: chances of NS having a fit are reduced
grizz: therefore chances of EW are reduced too!
grizz: and it's better for ops to play in THEIR misfit, than for us to play in OURS!
wyoming33: RIGHT
jaf1935: true
grizz: and it precisely because of hands like this, and bidding discipline like this, that W can balance with 7 hcp and win
jaf1935: the distrib is terrible in !d 5/1 against ns
grizz: and this is with N holding 18!    imagine if he only had 12!!!
jaf1935: sorry !s
Campus61: no not holding 4 trumps in opps suit
grizz: so 2 lessons on this hand - don't fall in love with a good hand when pd passes
grizz: and don't be afraid to balance on almost nothing, especially with favorable vulnerability
grizz: remember the tip about 'borrowing' a king from pd when balancing
grizz: and pd remembering that you are already bidding 3 of his points!
jaf1935: good hint
grizz: of course, if W has more than that he will continue bidding
grizz: and E will get the message
grizz: any more comments or questions before we move on?
jacquiek: so to balance how many pts, including the borrowed king, should you have?
grizz: oh- the other lesson is on defense
grizz: when holding length in trump, don't go looking for ruffs
grizz: force declarer to ruff, and lose control of the hand
jaf1935: nicely said
grizz: at this vul, i would balance with almost nothing
grizz: 3+, maybe, with shape
grizz: when red i like to have 7
grizz: and i steal a lot of imps from players who think they need 10   :)
jacquiek: great tip
wyoming33: with so little - giving OP chance to bid in case has giant hand - so I rather have some more than 3:)
robzim: when I watch hands being bid  I always wondered what people had in mind when they doubled with hands like Ws.  Now I know!
grizz: Mike Lawrence wrote a book on balancing, and i recommend it
Teddymom: Grizz, I still do not understand how East will know that west borrowed his King. 
Dianne0516: It's missing from his hand ;)
wyoming33: has to assume it - can find out different later
grizz: E will assume it in this auction
wyoming33: LOL
sharon J: lol
grizz: lol
cherrie: lol
grizz: subject to clarification later in the auction
Campus61: :)
grizz: the point is that E cannot go jumping around thinking that W has some stuff
sharon J: why did you play spade on 3rd trick?  Why not club?
dee_dee_20: he only balances in 4th seat 
grizz: geeeez, i can't remember, wish you had asked me back then
robzim: can't he figure out his points and S (having less than 6) and come to some sort of conclusion?
sharon J: lol, sorry
grizz: lol
wyoming33: doesnt want dec to trump in dummy
grizz: oh, right
grizz: E was entitled to think that N had !cs to ruff in dummy
sharon J: right, ty
grizz: so E was killing dummy's ruffing power
grizz: unaware that N only had 2
wyoming33: or ruff and sluff
grizz: right
sharon J: yes
grizz: any other questions?    this is a very complex hand with a lot to discuss
ydannac: what would make here
grizz: let's all try to figure that out
grizz: 2NT, maybe 3
grizz: 2!s
grizz: 2!h
Dianne0516: A !d if placed right
grizz: 1-2!d
grizz: 3!c
grizz: which brings me back to an earlier point
wyoming33: problem with entries - not sure about !S
grizz: if you have enough stuff to set a 1 level contract, you probably make game somewhere
grizz: or !ds
grizz: but ops will be forced to help
grizz: but at this vul, the riverboat gamblers will defend red 2X
grizz: and the good defenders will win
wyoming33: lets play 2!C - can 3!C make?
grizz: looks like, but nowhere near game
PedroG->Club: LOTT say yes :) but 60% wrong :) 
grizz: :)
grizz: let's see what's next in the grab bag
wyoming33: no one can make game - oh I see - no way going to bid over 2!S that a for sure X
jaf1935: !c2
grizz: so, lots of things could happen on this hand
grizz: depending on what system you play over ops 1NT
jaf1935: capp
grizz: capp is popular, with 2!c showing a 1 suited hand
wyoming33: y
PedroG: Capp
grizz: but when the suit is !c, you might just as well bid 3
wyoming33: guess so:)
PedroG: didn't known that 
grizz: because 2!c will not throw much sand in the opps gears
grizz: question
vinny3147: Unless you play DONT
ydannac: why not bid DONT
jaf1935: true
grizz: if you are W, what happens when the auction goes 1NT-2!c-?
wyoming33: isnt that X
grizz: some play system off, everything is natural
grizz: some play X is for blood, opps have erred
wyoming33: depends
grizz: some play system on, and X is Stayman
grizz: some play Lebensohl
wyoming33: transfers on over 2!C
grizz: yikes!
grizz: the key is understanding with pd beforehand what the deal is
grizz: there is no right or wrong answer to that
LadyStar17: I like that one
grizz: but both pds must be on the same page
jacquiek: what convention do you recommend?
grizz: i recommend system on over X and 2!C
grizz: transfers, everything
wyoming33: thats simplist
grizz: over 1NT-2!c-?   X i play as Stayman
spum1:  
sharon J: yes
jacquiek: what about from the opps szx
grizz: this situation is rife with risk of disaster
spum1: I see 1nt 3!c 2!c, how can that be right?
wyoming33: so a 3!C bid causes prob for ops
jacquiek: opps standpoint?  Leb or ???
grizz: is X neg?    penalty?   Stayman?    'card-showing'?
dee_dee_20: 2!h is availabe  why not 2!h
grizz: 2!h is fine, but is it forcing?
grizz: invitational?
Dianne0516: How would this hand be bid using Leb?
grizz: drop dead?
sharon J: lol
Teddymom: Stolen bid double
dee_dee_20: well if you play leb it is weak drop dead
wyoming33: drop dead - inv 3 
grizz: stolen bids are always ambiguous, i do not recommend them
BILManager (Lobby): => Club: !D!DGrizz's Indy Tournament #770 begins in about 12 mins. Please register to play for Fun, $ prizes and BBO Masterpoints. You can register while kibbing or playing by clicking on the tourney button at the rifht hand side of your screen and choosing #770.The more that play, the bigger the prizes!H!H
grizz: let's bid it out a couple different ways
dee_dee_20: if agreement is 2!c stayman I would go for x
grizz: if EW play Leb, 3!h is natural and GF
grizz: ugh
wyoming33: isnt that OK
robzim: doesn't it go down?
grizz: y, lose 1!s, 1!d, 2!c
grizz: maybe a trump or an overruff
wyoming33: 11 pts should be game force - though I dont play leb
grizz: if you don't play Leb, this bid is ambiguous
grizz: i would pass this as E
wyoming33: problem with !H distribution - but normally not that bad
grizz: 8 card fit, but 4333 and nothing to ruff in the short hand
wyoming33: so think you have to play it by the rules 
oilysome: bid a lebensohl fast denies 3NT
grizz: E might be strong enough for a dummy reversal
grizz: but that does not work here with the 5-0 split
dee_dee_20: if u play leb via 2nt   it shows a little more ?
grizz: so let's get back to the W bid
grizz: is there a way to distinguish drop-dead from invitational from game force?
grizz: not in standard methods
dee_dee_20: leb   or 3rd level forcing
wyoming33: you are catering to a 5/0 trump split - that hardly ever going to happen
grizz: with Lebensohl you can
vinny3147: I'm trying to straigthen Dee out
grizz: 2 level bid is natural and drop dead
dee_dee_20: shhh Vinny
grizz: direct 3 level bid is natural and gf
grizz: and 2NT relays to 3!c for pass or clarification
jaf1935: if Systems r on after interference the !d 2 or !h 2 if not
grizz: so
grizz: 2!h would be drop dead
Dianne0516: Doesn't west have a GF hand?
grizz: 3!h would be GF
jaf1935: true
grizz: absolutely, 11 pts opposite a strong nt hand is GF
spum1: what is S first bid?  I see 3!c
wyoming33: yes - normally - 
grizz: i'm just talking hypotheticals here, what different bids would mean
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grizz: here is the cornerstone of the Leb system - 2Nt relays to 3!c
grizz: opener is COMMANED to bid 3!c, he has no idea what will happen next
grizz: this would be the sequence for an invitational !h hand
grizz: subtract a K from this hand and make it inv.
grizz: and this is how it would be bid
grizz: now, back to the action
grizz: i said earlier that 2!c does not gum up the auction enough to pay off
grizz: since good pairs can deal with 2!c interference
LadyStar17: super lesson!!!!!
wyoming33: right - mostly systems on
grizz: what about 3!c interference though?
->LadyStar17: :)
PedroG: :(
dee_dee_20: that promises 7!c
grizz: 3!h could be competitive, invitational or GF
wyoming33: west says - what do I do now
grizz: lol
grizz: the auction has now lost all clarity
jacquiek: then maybe 2!Hs becomes invitational???
grizz: over 3!c?
wyoming33: 2!H call the director
grizz: director!
jacquiek: guess not....
sharon J: lol
PedroG: LOL
grizz: which reminds me
jacquiek: tehe....i meant 3!Hs
grizz: i once played in a club game where 1NT was bid 3 times in the same auction!
grizz: twice by one side, once by the other
grizz: twice it was condoned
jacquiek: how can that be
The_No_1: that was a gooooood club lol
eire1: lol
grizz: rofl
wyoming33: LOL - never 3 times
grizz: both sides were comatose
eire1: LOL
grizz: ok
sharon J: rofl
robzim: must have had the scotch cabinet open!
wyoming33: must have been - and everyone accepted deficient bids
grizz: what does W do now?
grizz: yup
grizz: 3
grizz: 3!h
Blaster: 3h
grizz: ?
Dianne0516: lol
->Dianne0516: lol
grizz: now what?
dee_dee_20: if he bids 3!h  and they play leb   does it say G/values   but no stoppers in !c?
grizz: E knows that S has a suit, but no idea which one it is
grizz: Leb is off over 3 level interference
grizz: since the 2nt relay is no longer available
dee_dee_20: darn this hand!!!
grizz: and THAT is why 3!c is so much better than only 2
grizz: E could pass or bid 4!h, it's a coin flip now
wyoming33: cn see that now
sharon J: so the 3 club is still capp?
grizz: right, but announcing a !c suit
wyoming33: natural suit
Dianne0516: Would you say 3 !c with a suit not that good?
grizz: let me back up and show you how capp works
ydannac: is this capps
wyoming33: west passes????????
grizz: N MUST bid 2!D, to let S show his suit
grizz: W would not pass, i'm just demonstrating capp
wyoming33: K - sry
grizz: so W has some options in that auction
grizz: he could bid at his first turn, which would indicate some points
grizz: or he could pass first, then back in later, showing a weak hand
grizz: point is, EW can trade some information
grizz: that would not be available over 1NT-3!c
robzim: doesn't 2!c in CAPP show 5/4 or 5/5 in majors and 3!C show a 6 card suit somewhere?
grizz: this bid just throws rocks in the transmission
wyoming33: thats not CAPP
grizz: right, that is some other convention
wyoming33: so with a long single suit - just bid 3 of that suit?
grizz: and there are about 100 of them
grizz: no, this only works with !cs
wyoming33: OK 
grizz: though with this strength and shape you might do it with any other suit too
meshmeshaa: so if south had spades instead,he doesnt overcall 2 spaeds??
grizz: but the real point is that 2!c does not slow down good ops
grizz: right
grizz: whoa
sharon J: ok
Dianne0516: Would you bid clubs even if suit wasn't so strong?
grizz: playing capp, IF S had !s, the auction would go 1NT-2!c*-P-2!D*-P-2!s
grizz: sure, i would bid 3!c on this even with 3145 shape
ydannac: how many points needed
wyoming33: hmmmmmmm
grizz: generally 12+
meshmeshaa: 2D by north is relay over cap? whats ur suit??
grizz: a little less when white vs red, a little more red vs white
grizz: right
grizz: so if S had !Ds, he would pass
meshmeshaa: th u
meshmeshaa: why pas with Ds
wyoming33: I see !C is the only suit where south has to go to 3
grizz: IF S had long !ds, he would pass the 2!d relay bid
wyoming33: so just bid 3 right off
grizz: exactly
grizz: 2!d, 2!h and 2!s deprive ops of 2!c Stayman
grizz: and test their ability to cope with interference
grizz: whether they use Leb or some other treatment
robzim: I've been told that I was referring to lioncub's modified CAPP where 2!C means you have 5/5 in the majors and 3!C means a 6 card suit somewhere
grizz: ok, i'm not familiar with that treatment
grizz: fwiw, i don't like capp either
grizz: i play modified DONT, where !C is !c and a higher suit, so is 2!d
dee_dee_20: what do you use then?
wyoming33: just play landy
grizz: 2!h is natural, so is !s
grizz: and X is either one long minor or both majors
grizz: landy is better than no system at all, but not by much   :)
wyoming33: right - and CAPP seems the preferred system by many - not sure just why
dee_dee_20: with one pd  I play preferential treatment  it's a hoot:)
grizz: well gang, we already know what a disaster this one is to play
PedroG: so what would be best to start off Pete, Capp or DONT?
dee_dee_20: so let's not and move on :)
wyoming33: right 
grizz: i think you should all learn capp, because so many play it and you need to know how to bid against it
ydannac: Capps if for weak an DONT for strong???????
grizz: comes up a lot, so lots of opportunity to practice it
grizz: i like one system against both, less memory work
sharon J: does it depend on what the oppenents NT open means?  As far as hcp's that is
wyoming33: are you going into defense against certain conventions
grizz: and modified DONT works fine against both
grizz: generally you play either weak or strong nt
grizz: though there is some variation with weak, 12-14, 11-14, 13-15, 14-16, or even 10-12
ydannac: do play both weak and strong just one or the other????
grizz: some play variable, strong red and weak white
Campus61: where do u find modified DONT?
PedroG: I got a hand from a major event opening 1NT with 9HCP :)
wyoming33: just to confuse us:(
grizz: with one regular p i play weak all the time, and with another i play a strange aussie system with 15-18 and 5 card majors
->Campus61: bridgeguys.com
dee_dee_20: as long as it is alerted it should be ok
grizz: :)
Campus61: tks
grizz: but in general i prefer weak nt
grizz: however
ydannac: alert weak nt then????
grizz: i don't recommend it unless you can play the cards really well, because disaster is always just over the horizon
grizz: y
grizz: prealert
wyoming33: think still have to explain all ranges- even 15-17 - though maybe that has changed recently
grizz: ok, it's been almost 2 hours now and i need a break
grizz: any more questions?
wyoming33: thanks a lots - alway a good lesson :)
Campus61: tks Pete for ur time :)
dee_dee_20: no ty I think we all need a break  thanks
robzim: gonna go now -- have dinner plans.  See ya on line!  :)
Dianne0516: Thanks Pete
grizz: Thanks for your interest and participation, and I hope to see you next week.
sharon J: very good lesson, ty
grizz: Thanks also to Maureen, Fred, the BIL assistants and the other wonderful people at BBO who make this all possible.
trafalgar2: thx Pete
PedroG: TY Pete, always very nice to attend
ydannac: THANKS GRIZZ !H!H:)
grizz: :)
mei ann: ty pete
grizz: you guys are a great group, and this is fun for all
grizz: bye now
Campus61: bye
wyoming33: bye