Chat log from BIL Lesson 26 Sat Jan 12 2008 on MUD leads, Lavinthal and Odd/Even discards grizz->Lobby: !s!h Grizz on Defense will start in 15 minutes in the BIL. All members are invited to attend. Today's topic is Discards - Lavinthal and Odd/Even !d!c PedroG: Pete can I ask soomething about MUD? grizz: sure, fire away dae->Club: y PedroG: is MUD a play from the third hand or at lead? grizz: lead PedroG: ok grizz: some like it, some hate it PedroG: and u? grizz: here are the pros and cons of MUD grizz: which stands for Middle, Up, Down grizz: sometimes you are faced with the unpleasant prospect of leading from 3 small, like 852 grizz: so what do you lead? it depends on many factors grizz: 1. has partner bid the suit? grizz: 2. have you supported it? grizz: 3. did either of the ops bid it? grizz: if your partner has bid the suit, he knows you have 3+ and it's not necessary to give him count grizz: but it IS important for you to tell him whether you have any honors grizz: so a low spot card after you have supported the suit shows an honor, and requests continuation when pard is on lead grizz: if you have not supported pard's suit, you should lead the top card so he knows who has the honors grizz: in an unbid side suit, the problem is different grizz: if you lead low, you show interest in the suit and ask to have it returned grizz: but from your crummy 852, you don't want it returned, do you? so don't lead low onoway: so it's the opp from showing you dont like a suit if pard leads? high enc..... ->onoway: right grizz: but if you lead the 8, that might be a singleton or doubleton onoway: is that why people play udca? grizz: and you don't want partner to waste an entry on a bad suit, thinking you are short grizz: which is exactly what pard is entitled to think if you lead the 8, and play the 5 or 2 at your next opportunity grizz: so one solution to this problem is MUD, whereby you lead the Middle card first, then play the Up card next, and the Down card last grizz: so from 852 you would lead the 5, then the 8 and 2 in that order on the next 2 opportunities grizz: i like MUD, and most of my partners do too PedroG: ty Pete :) grizz: but some hate it, for a variety of reasons LadyStar17: I like MUD also it makes, to me wonderful sense grizz: MUD fits very nicely with 2/4 leads grizz: where you lead 4th from interest, or second-biggest to suggest a switch grizz: because Middle is also the 2nd highest card in the suit mick357: i thought that was from 3 not four kcgal: well that bought as clear as mud!!!lol grizz: which is not the topic today, but in response to a question grizz: yes, MUD is from 3, but you can also play 2nd highest from a longer suit - that tells partner you have no honors, and there is no future in that suit unless he has some Beefeater: are there any notes other than what you are typing here Pete? grizz: for newcomers, one of the kibs asked about MUD leads, and i described the pros and cons castraveti: 5-2 dblton ... 2-5 = 3 cards easybridge: 5-8 grizz: for the complete chat log of the question and discussion, you can go to GrizzBridge.com later castraveti: k grizz: Hi everybody, thanks for attending another of a series of lessons on Defense. grizz: Here we go with the usual stuff. grizz: Chat logs and hand records are stored in your computer for later review. For information on how to retrieve them, go the BIL homepage or email me. grizz: Chat logs and hand records are stored in your computer for later review. For information on how to retrieve them, go the BIL homepage or email me. Beefeater: yes, if they all have their preferences set correctly :) grizz: I teach private individual, pair, and small group lessons. If you would like to know more please email me at Grizz@GrizzBridge.com. grizz: And archives of old sessions are available at GrizzBridge.com, on the Lessons and Archives page. grizz: There will be lots of questions. I want to address them all, but in a manner helpful to all, so please ask them in open chat. grizz: As always i encourage participation by all kibs grizz: So jump right in with a comment, question, or bid at any time, but please do it in open chat castraveti: pls tell me, as a percentage, on how many hands do you need signaling ... in your oppinion ... t yvm grizz: +/-? grizz: 100% for anybody below expert rank rq4mulae: 30-40% PedroG: and 99% if u on the expert level :) rq4mulae: lol mick357: u can't play good defense without it castraveti: k ... for experts? grizz: the really good players defend intuitively, but that's because they already know the basics so well they can defend well in their sleep allenC: 100 grizz: zia almost never signals grizz: but for advancing players i recommend signalling all the time rq4mulae: when i can count and locate all 52 cards with the first trick, i won't signal anymore either. grizz: although i also recommend giving inaccurate signals from time to time, just to louse up declarer grizz: lol onoway: doesnt that give as much info to declarer as other defender? grizz: yes, it does give info to declarer, but that info is more valuable to your partner grizz: declarer already knows what his combined partnership assets are, he can see the dummy grizz: defenders must do some detective work, from the auction, dummy, and play to the first few tricks grizz: and since on most hands there are only a limited number of entry cards in defenders' hands, they must make the best use of them castraveti: comparing to UDCA ... do you think lavinthal is better? grizz: i will answer that question later, let's get on with getting acquainted with them grizz: Does anybody need review on opening leads? csue: yes easybridge: yes pl patsy_24: sure swapnendu0: me dmfav: yes pls joesypaddy: y onoway: always lol maysie: y ydannac: see no cards spum1: always grizz: Here are some general rules for leads as a review, for those who may not have attended previous sessions. grizz: By the way, these rules are for 1st hand LEADS, they do not apply to 3rd hand FOLLOWING! grizz: That bears repeating, these rules are only for the OPENING LEAD. grizz: 1. If your partner has bid a suit, lead it, unless you have a strong suit of your own and an outside entry. grizz: 2. Strong top-of-sequence leads from 4-card suits (KQJx. KQTx. QJTx) are better than weaker but longer suits (Jxxxx, Qxxxx). grizz: 3. If you have the choice between an unbid major or an unbid minor with similar strength in each, the major is usually a better prospect. grizz: 4. If dummy uses Stayman he can be assumed to have one or two 4-card majors. grizz: 5. If your hand is dreadful, try to hit partner's long suit, even if he hasn't bid. Any suit that he might have bid at the 1 level but didn't will be an unlikely candidate for ... grizz: this desperation lead. grizz: 6. If dummy has announced during the auction that he has a long, strong suit, you must make an aggressive lead in another suit. AKx. KQx or QJx are better in this case than ... grizz: weaker but longer suits. grizz: 7. Partner needs to know whether you have any honors in the suit you lead. If a switch must be made at Trick 2, partner needs to know and act quickly. grizz: A. The lead of a low card in an unbid suit promises an honor. So if you lead low, expect partner to return that suit if he gets in. grizz: B. Likewise, the lead of a big spot card tends to deny an honor. Partner is notified that he must switch. grizz: C. Leading from a strong 4-card suit like AQTx, AQJx, AJTx, or AKTx usually costs a trick. Odds are that RHO has the missing honor, and a lead from one of these sequences goes ... grizz: right into declarer's tenace. grizz: D. The lead of a Q shows either the top of a sequence (QJT, QJ9) OR a powerful combination headed by the KQT9. grizz: If the opening leader may have that combination, that is you are 3rd hand and do not see the K,T or 9 but you do have the J, you should play it at Trick 1. grizz: Otherwise you would give a Count signal. grizz: So the opening lead of a Q calls for Unblock the J or give Count grizz: E. The lead of a K shows either a sequence or a short suit (AKx, KQx). grizz: F. Leading an A shows a very strong suit, headed by AKQ, AKJT, AKJ (or AQJ with an outside entry). Since the A is a guaranteed entry, it is rare to waste it on the opening lead. grizz: G. Playing Coded 9's and T's, also known as Jack Denies (and T or 9 Implies), the lead of a J denies a higher honor, but guarantees a sequence if it is an unbid suit. grizz: The lead of a T or 9 now specifically shows 0 or 2 cards higher. If leader has 2 higher cards, they are specifically a touching tenace (KJT9, KT98, AT98, AJT9, etc.) grizz: Remember, these rules are for 1st hand LEADS, they do not apply to 3rd hand FOLLOWING. grizz: We sped through those rules because most of you have seen them many times. Are there any questions? Canuckstan: y, how can you type that fast? must be cutting and pasting! ->Canuckstan: :) grizz: The rules for 3rd hand play are much simpler than for opening leads: grizz: 1. Win the trick, unless there is a good reason not to. grizz: 2. Give Attitude on partner's lead - tell him whether to continue the suit or switch. mick357: what about these 1) if you dont have a singleton, you have not led it. 2) must have good reason for not leading trump rq4mulae: what's your opinion of coded 9's & 10's? i think they take away interior sequence leads. grizz: 1) is a Garozzo rule, and i tend to agree mick357: both are grizz: but i disagree about trump leads, my opinion is there should be a compelling reason if you DO lead a trump grizz: coded 9 and T just handles an interior sequence differently grizz: for more complete discussion about them, go to the archives at GrizzBridge.com grizz: 3. Give Count on declarer's lead, to help partner figure out suit distribution around the table. grizz: The rules for leads on Tricks 2-12 are: dae->Club: strange hand! grizz: 1. Low card encourages, and overrides any previous signals. grizz: The "4th best rule" does not apply any more, if you want the suit returned lead the lowest card in that suit. grizz: 2. High spot card discourages, and overrides any previous signals. grizz: If you want partner to switch to a different suit, lead high and hope partner can figure it out from the bidding, dummy, and play to previous tricks. grizz: Any questions so far? onoway: that is udca? grizz: UDCA stands for Upside Down Count and Attitude, the subject of a future session swapnendu0: what wrong if high encourage? onoway: I thought high encouraged in standard? grizz: the problem with standard signals is that you waste 3rd round winners with your signals csue: amen grizz: We have talked about NT defense, leads, third hand play and signals now for several months now. grizz: We saw that in standard methods a discard can show Attitude, Count or Suit Preference, but only one thing at one time. grizz: Wouldn't it be helpful if we could combine two or more of those signals in one card? grizz: As it happens, the smart guys of bridge have come up with two commonly-used signals doing just that. grizz: Let us first look at Lavinthal signals. grizz: These are credited to Hy Lavinthal, one of the old timers who came up with this idea in 1934! grizz: Let us look at an example, before discussing generalities. grizz: N-S are in a good 3NT contract. Only careful play in !hs will beat the contract. grizz: West sees chances in !Hs, and makes a good lead. grizz: East has a chance to shine here, see if you can spot it. castraveti: 5 julianw2: Q fisrt card? rq4mulae: underplay A with Q grizz: yesssss! grizz: most "Rule" players will win the A and return the Q grizz: declarer holds up twice, and collects his game grizz: but what happens if E plays the Q? grizz: 2 good things happen grizz: 1. can S afford to duck? castraveti: y grizz: not if W has AJ98xxxx! castraveti: why not? grizz: back comes a !h, and defenders take the first 5 or 6 tricks swapnendu0: n castraveti: bid it at 3rd level if so castraveti: no julianw2: but west wouldn't pass with AJ98xxxx castraveti: put 10 over grizz: 2. E retains an entry so he can make the right lead when the situation is clear grizz: so the Q knocks out the !h stopper at Trick 1 julianw2: you are right...no sane south will duck KH grizz: a very savvy declarer might duck grizz: if he does, don't play him for money!!! grizz: what should W play here? easybridge: ad castraveti: A swapnendu0: 6 kenny007: ace to lead the heart castraveti: and small !H grizz: double dummy, it is obvious to win, cross with a !h, and set the contract grizz: but at the table it's not obvious at all grizz: so W should wait for help from partner grizz: and E signals count grizz: hi-lo shows an even number castraveti: now lead a 3 !D ... and kill wind :) grizz: the 2 completes the hi-lo echo grizz: here is the critical signal castraveti: 5 castraveti: !C castraveti: 6 kenny007: high club allenC: j grizz: playing Lavinthal, you discard a suit that you do NOT want returned grizz: and the size of the card shows preferece among the other 2 suits grizz: high spot card shows the higher ranking suit !s grizz: and a low spot card shows the lower ranking suit, !s julianw2: but if he ducks twice you have 9 tricks 1H, 2D's, 3 top spades 3 top clubs kenny007: low spade or high club dae->Club: to me ,preemptive means weak and I think I am fairly storong? swapnendu0: !h grizz: now W knows that E has the !HAx, and can proceed to set the contract easybridge: 10 s grizz: the !HT is now trapped grizz: and it does not matter whether S ducks Canuckstan: u said !S was both the low and the higher ranking suit? kenny007: i do not understand the low club signal form east grizz: playing Lavinthal, you discard a suit that you do NOT want returned grizz: and the size of the card shows preferece among the other 2 suits grizz: high spot card shows the higher ranking suit grizz: and a low spot card shows the lower ranking suit easybridge: but there are 4 suits grizz: !d is the suit being led grizz: E is out grizz: can't follow, so there are 3 other suits to consider grizz: there is a high suit, and a low suit grizz: in this case !s is high, and !h is low grizz: E does not want a !C return grizz: so a low !c says he wants the lower of the OTHER 2 suits easybridge: ok grizz: other 2 suits being !s and !h hoppyjack: I think the problem is that you had spades as both high and low above description. grizz: oops, i goofed above grizz: let me show you another way to send the same signal with a different card kenny007: i learned what i pitch...lead next suit up or next suit down....is that incorrect? grizz: that is a variation of Lavinthal called Revolving Lavinthal, but let's get a handle on straight Lavinthal first grizz: last time E played a low !c grizz: E can also send the same message with a high !s! grizz: "DO NOT lead a !s pard!" lead the higher of the other 2 suits grizz: different card than last time, but the same message spum1: very clear grizz: does anybody not understand this? Canuckstan: but confusing because in standard carding that high !S asks for a !S lead? grizz: you can tell me privately camilleln: no q...very clear alexiss: could you also use the !cJ to show it? grizz: in standard methods, you discard a card in the suit you WANT, and the size does not matter swapnendu0: which is preferable? grizz: in Lavinthal it makes a great deal of difference! loveone: hard time to understand use to std discard :( grizz: !CJ would ask for the higher side suit, !s Campus61->Club: could she have bid 3diamonds with 7 Dianne0516: Do you ever get in a situation where you have a problem discarding w/o giving your ptnr the wrong message? alexiss: yes...right easybridge: jc will show spades robzim: if you'd signal with the heart -- you would defeat the purpose and not have one to lead back grizz: so if E had the !SAQ behind the K in dummy, he would ask for a !s switch grizz: notice that in any case, if you signal with a !h you don't have a 3rd one to lead back grizz: so standard signals would kill the defense on this hand grizz: and that is why Lavinthal is so important, especially vs. NT grizz: so there are 4 critical plays on this hand grizz: 1. long suit lead from a weak suit, with an outside entry grizz: 2. 3rd hand plays the Q to knock out the stopper grizz: 3. W ducks to get a signal from E grizz: 4. Lavinthal signal draws a roadmap for the defense patsy_24: would u always play the q from an aq if pard leads suit grizz: not if there were another way guaranteed to beat the contract allenC: is it that difficult for declarerto fiqure to hold up on king? patsy_24->Club: usually grizz: but the Q here is a master play kenny007: how about wiht a doubleton....aq...still the q? grizz: no, then A first and continue the Q kenny007->Club: ty grizz: the Q only makes sense when you have a spot card to continue with kenny007: ty alexiss: have a ? grizz: So here is the generalization. Assume opponents are running a long suit. grizz: When partner cannot follow to the suit, the first discard is an unwanted suit. grizz: The size of the card signifies preference, between the remaining two side suits. grizz: A low card shows preference for the lower suit... grizz: ...while a high card asks partner to lead the higher side suit when possible. grizz: That is Lavinthal in a nutshell - simple, effective and easy to remember. grizz: High card = high suit, low card = low suit. grizz: This applies to the FIRST DISCARD ONLY, not to any subsequent discards. grizz: Most players who use Lavinthal employ it only against NT contracts. grizz: Though a few use it against suits as well. Dianne0516: Why not against suit contract? grizz: Lav works well against suits too, so I can't tell you why most Lav players use it only against NT Canuckstan: so you would not play o/e as well as lavinthal discards? grizz: no, Lav and O/E are mutually exclusive Canuckstan: which is better? grizz: that is totally subjective Canuckstan: which do you use then? chaps2: will u explain lan grizz: but it is good to use both, and here is why - at different times, that is grizz: so that as declarer, you know what ops are up to :) grizz: you all have probably played at tables where defenders traded this kind of information right under your nose grizz: without being aware of it grizz: There is a variation called Revolving Lavinthal as well, but I don't want to confuse the issue now. grizz: Just be aware there is a different treatment, and make sure that if partner agrees to play Lavinthal you are both on the same page. grizz: BTW, you must prealert your opponents that you are using Lavinthal. grizz: But you do not need to interpret any particular card - if an op asks about a card during the play, you need to say that partner doesn't like that suit, high card calls for the high ... grizz: suit and low card calls for the low suit. Dianne0516: don't you alert any carding? grizz: yes grizz: best to prealert it before play starts grizz: something like "we play 2/1, standard signals and Lavinthal vs. NT" grizz: if an op asks about a card during the play, you need to say that partner doesn't like that suit, high card calls for the high suit and low card calls for the low suit. grizz: You do NOT need to interpret whether that card is high or low, only to restate your agreement. grizz: Sometimes a 6 is high, and other times a 7 is low. Partner must figure it out from the auction, dummy and previous play; declarer must do the same. Pear: does an item in your profile comnstitute an alert pls? grizz: no, you should prealert in chat grizz: or sometime early in the play of the hand kenny007: when playing in a trump contract the 2 side suits are the suits other than trump and the card pitched? PedroG: we have hard time making them alert the bid's already :) grizz: in a trump contract, usually your first discard is on run of the trumps grizz: so there are 2 nontrump side suits kenny007: duh grizz: but theoretically you would be allowed to use Lavinthal if you wanted a trump lead, and the discard happened on a nontrump suit grizz: :) alexiss: what i dont understand here...if W ducks 2 times !d to get a signal from E...i count as S,stop with !d and continue playing my 6 sure tricks in c and s grizz: yes, S made a mistake here by continuing !d kenny007: really? ReginaldF->Club: Excellent lesson thanks v much night all grizz: This concept applies to other similar situations at the table as well - you are obligated to state what your agreement is (if any!), but not how it applies to the case at hand. grizz: If there is a great deal of interest I will describe Revolving Lavinthal, otherwise I will move on now to Roman Discards. patsy_24: roman robzim: roman Canuckstan: y wyoming33: why Roman - if advantage please explain it to me _ I dont see it dmfav: Roman pls grizz: ok, roman it is grizz: The other commonly-used multiple signal system is Roman Discards, or Odd/Even Discards, usually abbreviated as O/E on convention cards. Canuckstan: so o/e and roman are same thing? grizz: yes Canuckstan: i didn't know! wyoming33: that my question - OH got it - grizz: the other commonly-used multiple signal system is Roman Discards, or Odd/Even Discards, usually abbreviated as O/E on convention cards.With this system, discarding an odd spot-card ... grizz: (3,5,7,9) encourages the suit of that card, grizz: while an even spot-card (2,4,6,8) discourages that suit AND tends to show suit preference as well. grizz: So a low even card shows preference for the lower of the other two suits, grizz: and a high even card asks for the higher suit. grizz: Many players think that Roman gives a clearer signal than Lavinthal, but that is entirely a matter of personal preference. mick357: i use 8,10 mick357: for higher suit grizz: i'll be glad to tell you about Revolving Lav later :) Canuckstan: may i share my memory aid for o/e here? grizz: sure bjh346: pls do wanda310: yes do Canuckstan: odd = good; both end with the "od" sound grizz: Those who use Roman usually employ it against both suits and NT, though that is a matter for partnership agreement. grizz: Let us use the same hand to demonstrate the difference. Dianne0516: I got a better one "od LIKE me allenC: lol grizz: low even card discourages that suit, and shows preference betweent the 2 other suits, !s and !h grizz: low card, low suit dae: still H grizz: !ST sends the same message - don't lead a !s, but the higher of the other 2 suits grizz: are there any questions? patsy_24: is this only used for first discard also grizz: right, first discard only patsy_24: then revert to standard? easybridge: what you use for attitude in nt defense grizz: and i encourage all of you to experiment with both these systems, so you can intercept defenders' signal when you are declarer grizz: for subsequent discards you revert to your basic agreement, whether standard or udca cloudbdk: south can get 9 tricks if west ducks, !d !d2 !h1 !s3 !c3 freeby57: what if all cards are even or odd? how to do o/e ? grizz: no matter what system you use, there will be times when the spot cards are inconvenient to your system grizz: c'est la vie grizz: nothing works all the time in bridge Pear: except pass grizz: true, S can make 3 if he gives up on !d grizz: but matchpoint greed can be a terrible thing :) cloudbdk: I see grizz: if defenders do not continue !hs in that fashion, there is an overtrick to be had dee_dee_20: what do u mean u revert to basic agreement ? once you decide to use o/e why revert? grizz: o/e applies only to the first discard grizz: later tricks revert to your basic carding, either standard or udca dee_dee_20: I play it throughout loubel: He oui,c'est la vie!!!:) grizz: you may do that of course, but it loses importance later in the play dee_dee_20: you can show count which I am not good at yet grizz: yes, we talked about that a lot last year grizz: hi-lo shows even in standard methods grizz: but odd in udca dee_dee_20: yes but with even cards mick357: doesn't acbl say you can only use roman discard or lavinthal on first discard? mick357: sorry cant use grizz: and you usually give count on declarer's leads, but attitude on partner's lead mick357: nope mean can only use roman dee_dee_20: so u always have a card to show encour, and even to show count and preference Campus61: o/e says what on first discard not following suit? grizz: yes, most of the time you will have a card in your hand that gives the right signal dee_dee_20: yes dee_dee_20: :) ->Campus61: odd card encourages that suit wyoming33: ACBL convention card says "first discard" for Lav and odd/even ->Campus61: even discourages and shows suit preference grizz: one problem with both Lavinthal and Roman grizz: there is no way to show ambivalence! onoway: :) grizz: so you must give a preference, even if you don't want to :( dee_dee_20: as you said above c'est la vie! lenia1: middle cards are neutral Campus61: that is the same for std and udca? or reverse grizz: but that is a minor problem Canuckstan: can o/e be used along with both standard carding and udca? grizz: sure ydannac: so Lavinathal is only used in first discard only grizz: generally, yes rojune: this is a lesson that given again most could benefit from it, I know I could:) grizz: are there any more questions? Pear: can you alert a lavinthal card at the time you play it? grizz: not in live bridge, because in so doing you may alert partner who may have forgotten grizz: but it's ok on bbo ydannac: is Lavinthal only the first discard and then play standard? grizz: yes, first discard only for both Lavinthal and O/E grizz: That concludes today's lesson, and next week we will look at something different. grizz: Now that we know what to lead and how to signal, we need to look at when and why. Canuckstan: glad I didn't miss this one: filled in a couple of holes PedroG: ty Pete, great lesson wanda310: tks Pete !H :) ydannac: Thanks Grizz!H!H:) grizz: That gets us into the broader field of defensive strategies, of which there are 5 types. Canuckstan: thanks pete Dianne0516: Thanks so much for coming, Pete :) camilleln: ty Pete!! dmfav: this was very helpful -- thank you! terrierx2: thank you. ladygolf: thanks Pete spum1: tnx pete:) grizz: Stay tuned next week when we will get started on wrapping this all together into a comprehensive understanding of when, why and how to execute a defensive plan. lenia1: tks vm:) alexiss: thanks...very helpful lesson grizz: If anybody needs help retrieving the hand records or chat log, please email me at Grizz@GrizzBridge.com. t1hammond: where do I get a copy of lesson text dotfl: tks Pete wanda310: great lesson :) grizz: Thanks for your interest and participation, and I hope to see you next week. rememberpe: thank you Pear: TY ->t1hammond: archives at grizzbridge.com guyb2: TYVM wyoming33: thank you - :) t1hammond: ty ydannac: we will be here as always thanks!H!H grizz: Thanks also to Maureen, Rosemary, Fred and the wonderful people at BBO who make this all possible. LadyStar17: Thanks, Grizz!!!! Great lesson PedroG: :) great session grizz: Thanks all for coming, i'll see you in a week ->PedroG: thx! :) onoway: thanks Grizz great stuff mei ann: hi will lesson be reapeated in Club2/1? ->mei ann: no, we will do random hands there dee_dee_20: :) mei ann: k ty pete LadyStar17: Super Super Lesson today!!!! ->onoway: right gypsy1308: r u on in an hr in the IA club? ->gypsy1308: righto ->mei ann: chat log and hand records will be on my website mei ann: k ty grizz: Bye now LadyStar17: i plan on printing and reading and reading it a Lot