Chat log of Bridge Base Online session for grizz starting at: Sat Oct 27 16:25:09 2007

club2over1 (Lobby): => Club: Grizz teaching in the club Right Now..all welcome:)
grizz: hi all
onoway: hi all 
fairwell: hi 
club2over1: hi:)
dkgrab: busy night  :)
grizz: let's give a couple minutes for stragglers to find us
cc1313: pete, ur one of the best teachers  have lessons when and how u want!    people like me arrange our schedules to take them
onoway: I think a few people are stuck in the BIL indy
->cc1313: u r 2 sweet   :)
grizz: y, unforrtunate
grizz: well, let's start without them
grizz: in bil we concentrate on defense, but here everything is fair game
grizz: anybody think S should bid?
jaf1935: can we see all seats or only one of them, please
grizz: it's ok to look at all the hands, these are random
jaf1935: ok
jaf1935: pass
grizz: some folks might want to bid unusual nt with this trash
jaf1935: true
grizz: but i recommend against it
grizz: now what?
fairwell: 2nt?
fairwell: jacoby:
grizz: one good choice, any others?
jaf1935: 2!d
jaf1935: is forcing a round
grizz: two good ones
grizz: in 2/1, 2!d is gf
dkgrab: i like J2nt
jaf1935: true
fairwell: east can always signal re. d's
grizz: look at the W hand
fairwell: go from there to show singleton
grizz: big !S fit
grizz: 18 hcp
jaf1935: with 18 hcp
grizz: W has to be thinking about slam
grizz: so let's talk about slams
grizz: there are 3 basic kinds, and combinations of those 3
grizz: 1.  overwhelming hcp strength
grizz: 33-36 for small, 37+ for grand
grizz: here are some odds for you on this:
grizz: 1 hand in 143.5 will have 33+ hcp
grizz: 1 hand in 5848 will have 37+
grizz: so on any given hand, probability is 0.7% of small slam
grizz: and 0.02% of grand, based on sheer hcp
grizz: we all know that there are a lot more slams in real life than these numbers show
grizz: so where do they come from?
grizz: the other two types
grizz: 2.  freak distribution
grizz: with outside controls
grizz: long running suit with outside controls is another recipe for slam
grizz: type 3 is double fit
grizz: i don't have odds on freaks and double fits
grizz: but i do have some intuition
grizz: and i'm guessing that there may be 10 times as many type 2 and 3 as type 1
grizz: and of those 2 types, double fit is more frequent than freak distribution
grizz: therefore
grizz: when you have a trump fit
grizz: and might be in the slam zone
grizz: the first thing to look for is a double fit
grizz: so that is a roundabout way to explain why i like 2!d here
grizz: even though you have the Jacoby 2NT bid in your toolbox
grizz: if E has a !d fit, then we are off slamming
grizz: might go there anyway, but 2!d is the best first step
grizz: may we have all comments in open chat please?   thx
grizz: notice one other thing
grizz: since the double fits are so powerful, and it's best to explore for them, what does that say about hands where you would bid Jacoby 2NT?
grizz: don't be bashful now   :)
dogoronan1: shd be balanced then
club2over1: you dont have a particualrly outstanding second suit?
grizz: bingo!
grizz: two sides of the same coin
grizz: so here is another consideraton
grizz: if you have a big trump fit, a second suit AND shortness, what do you show?
grizz: what if the W hand were 4351?
panim: shortness
club2over1: shortness I thought
smudge1: splinter?
grizz: most folks think so
grizz: but i humbly disagree
grizz: since the second suit is more important, check it out first!
grizz: saves space, 
grizz: gets you started in the right direction
grizz: if you have shortness, you can show it later
grizz: with my regular partners i use delayed splinters, if at all
grizz: OR
grizz: (and this is one of our dirty little secrets, so don't tell anybody)
grizz: a limit raise hand with a stiff
grizz: 10-12 with big trump fit and a stiff
grizz: that's where you should show a splinter
grizz: since it shows no interest in slam
grizz: and you don't mind chewing up your own bidding space
grizz: but you need to preempt the ops out of their fit
grizz: wow, that's a lot of chat about the first round of bids!
grizz: now what
grizz: 2!s?
grizz: 3!s?
grizz: 3!c?
dogoronan1: 2!S
jaf1935: no 2!s
smudge1: 3spades
fairwell: 3c
grizz: 3nt anybody?
jaf1935: no 2!s
brianna: no
fairwell: :(
grizz: you are likely to see any of those 3 at the table
brianna: actually makes a little more in nt tho 
9195sss: 2s
jaf1935: we could 1nt or 2nt
grizz: let's toss out 3NT right away as awful
grizz: for 2 reasons
grizz: 3NT has killed more slams than any other bid in bridge
grizz: 2.  with stiff in pd's suit, transportation can get dicey in NT
grizz: so we could show the second suit, or the extra !s.  why should we do or not do either of those things?
grizz: and 3!s is still on the table too
lynn_nb: your second suit is not very strong
grizz: let's try to eliminate the bad ones
Iibby: 3c bad, lets opp x for a lead 
grizz: in an auction that goes 1M-2!D-3!C
grizz: the opening hand should have at least 16 hcp
grizz: that sequence should never happen when opener has a minimum
jaf1935: but no it got only 13hcp
grizz: with mini, opener should bid NT if appropriate, or rebid the M if not
grizz: even if only a 5-bagger
smudge1: and you can't count distribution 'cause you don't know about the fit.
grizz: yessssssss!
grizz: no known !s fit yet!
grizz: E has 6 losers, but only with a known fit
grizz: otherwise, only 13 hcp - so go slowly
grizz: 2!s doesn't guarantee an extra !S, but suggests one
grizz: now what?
Dianne0516: 3 !s
Iibby: 3s
jaf1935: i show support
grizz: perfect
dogoronan1: may be passed tho
grizz: no, 2!d set up a GF auction
fairwell: y
Iibby: 4h
Iibby: denies ace clubs
grizz: random thoughts here:
grizz: it's wrong to splinter in pd's suit
grizz: so if you are thinking 'what do i cue?', !d is out
grizz: using italian cues, a cue below game level can be A or K
grizz: and it warns W that the !CA is missing
fairwell: should that be alerted?
grizz: y
jaf1935: yes
jaf1935: and explained qbid control
Iibby: alerted as a cue bid only 
grizz: right, it's a control, not a suit
grizz: though when experts play against each other, they don't alert a lot of bids that they should
grizz: West knows something else very important now.  what would that be?
club2over1:  warns about  the K!C as well as the ace  then
dogoronan1: no !H losers, no !c control
jaf1935: he has not a qbid for !c
grizz: West knows that the 4!h MUST be the K or stiff, in any case not the A
jaf1935: so i'll bid !s 4
grizz: and E would not skip over the !CK to show either the !HK or a stiff
grizz: and with a stiff !C, E would bid 4!c
grizz: ergo
grizz: they have 2 !c losers
grizz: and now the ops know that too
grizz: slam depends totally on the lead
grizz: !c kills it
grizz: anything else and it makes
grizz: but it's not a good slam - never is, when off 2 top cashing tricks!
grizz: and good bidding kept them out of it
jaf1935: no need for splinters which take place and get us higher than we want to be
grizz: that too
fairwell: probably 5 makes
grizz: EW learned everything they needed to know without bidding 4nt
grizz: 5 is safe here
grizz: but on lots of other hands won't be
grizz: which leads me to a thought about RKC
grizz: the real purpose of RKC or any other form of blackwood is to keep you out of slams off 2 aces
grizz: NOT to tell each other how many you have
grizz: here you don't need the information that RKC would provide
grizz: and you save a whole bidding level by cueing
grizz: is that cool or what????
Dianne0516: y
smudge1: cool
jaf1935: yes true
grizz: one  other thought
grizz: in a big tournament, some pairs will be in the slam
grizz: and some of them will make on a bad lead
grizz: there are at least 10 ways to bid this hand
grizz: but
grizz: those who get there and make
grizz: will think they did something good!
grizz: and are likely to bid like fools again!
jaf1935: no they were lucky once
grizz: yes, but they might not know that!
cc1313: lol lol lol
grizz: so good results reinforce bad bidding!!!
jaf1935: but other times...
grizz: y, in the long run, they will be big losers
grizz: and here is another cruel irony of bridge
grizz: a long time ago, i used to bid slams on hands like this, and a few of them made
grizz: we had a few tops, a few averages, and lots of bottoms
grizz: figured i just had to keep the tops and averages, and get rid of the bottoms
jaf1935: true that is masterlike
grizz: took me a long time to figure out that the habits that caused the tops....
grizz: ...also caused the bottoms!
grizz: and a LOT more of 'em!
grizz: so
grizz: don't let your result dictate your bidding
jaf1935: true  wisdom speaking
grizz: learn good solid bidding
grizz: and results will follow
Chas_P: it is possible to bid a grand slam missing an ace using Italian style cuebids.
grizz: possible, but not likely
grizz: because cuebids are not a substitute for RKC,
grizz: they just set the table for it
jaf1935: that's new "Italian style qbidding"
grizz: i don't have an example hand
grizz: so hard to explain
grizz: but the first cuebid could be A, K, stiff or void
grizz: then bid controls up the line from there, first round controls first.
Chas_P: right.  i've done it.  that's why i know.  :)
grizz: and one pd or the other may decide to firm things up for slam
grizz: by bidding RKC
grizz: and matching up the results with the cuebid auction
jaf1935: what's the meaning of stiff
grizz: stiff means singleton
grizz: so it's almost impossible to go too high missing an ace you thought you had
grizz: many good auctions use cuebids below game level, then RKC above
Chas_P: i agree with you 100%, Pete.  i was just making conversation.  :-)
grizz: i did an experiment last january, and recommend this to all of you
grizz: go for a whole month without ever bidding 4NT
grizz: cuebid your way to slams without it
grizz: you'll never guess what happened
fairwell: I;ve heard that's a good way to go
grizz: 16 grand slams without RKC!!!
grizz: with 3 different partners
grizz: one in overcall position!
jaf1935: even better
smudge1: 0
grizz: it was a revelation
grizz: as though walking on crutches all my life, and then discovering they weren't needed
grizz: but i only recommend that for those with regular partners, who can discuss the theory
grizz: but you will learn for yourselves that RKC is not a tool for putting you into good slams, but for keeping you out of bad ones
grizz: well gang, looks like i blew the whole hour on one crummy hand
grizz: hope you weren't disappointed
hpd2000: we learned a lot
Chas_P: the point was well made
grizz: it's just amazing how many issues come up in random hands
grizz: and there were lots of important ones here
dotfl: thanks great lesson
smudge1: not at all.  great to go into one hand in depth
Iibby: good stuff
fairwell: interesting always
Dianne0516: Thanks Pete :)
club2over1: thanks so much for your time and expertise  Grizz     it is much appreciated
Iibby: THANKS !
grizz: it's not the hand that's important, but your understanding of the principles
jaf1935: thanks very much
nzakosek: thx pete
grizz: so thx all for coming, and i hope to see you next week
Iibby: for sure ! :)
grizz: bye now
jaf1935: precious and concise great lesson
grizz: ok, thx all, gtg now