Puppet Stayman (Editor's note: The hands discussed in this session were selected from a group of 50 hands that are in the hand record. All 50 hands are available in the hand records, but the numbers are out of sequence. The numbers are listed below so you can follow the discussion.) grizz: ok, let's dive right in grizz: there is a class of hands that causes great difficulty grizz: hands like the one you see in North today grizz: 20 hcp, balanced, but with a 5 card major grizz: 4 losers, so not quite strong enough for 2!c grizz: but there are a lot of 3-5 point responder hands that will make game grizz: but that would and should pass a 1-level opening bid huber225: do you go on losing trick count or points here? grizz: the smart guys of bridge decided that the best way to handle these hands is to let opener bid 2NT with a 5 card major ->huber225: ask in the open please, good question grizz: i am asked: do you go on losing trick count or points here? grizz: Losing Trick Count breaks down on square hands grizz: so i don't use it at all on any kind of nt hand grizz: this is a semi-balanced hand, you might treat it as either a NT hand or a 2-suiter grizz: with good values in all suits, 2NT stands out grizz: anyway, back to the action smudge1: i'm sorry, but how do you count only 4 losing tricks in north hand? grizz: i don't want to get sidetracked into LTC here, but here are the losers according to LTC: grizz: 1!s grizz: 1!h grizz: 1!d grizz: 1!c smudge1: thanks. grizz: google Losing Trick Count for more information KlutzyGirl: u onlu count AKQ grizz: and I refer to it often grizz: S might raise to 4!h here, with these nice intermediates grizz: but what if all the 9s and Ts were 2s and 3s? grizz: or it were a Q and 2 or 3Js in different suits? grizz: then S might pass grizz: and N would be very disappointed grizz: but opposite a 2NT opener, it's a whole different story grizz: now, since opener might have a 5-card major for that bid, we need a way to find a 5-3 fit grizz: so was created Puppet Stayman grizz: which asks not for a 4-card major, as usual, but for a 5-card major grizz: thus we find the 5-3 fit easily, and turn a problem hand into a no-brainer grizz: any questions? KlutzyGirl: what if each hand has 4? grizz: excellent question barbhow: does this mean u can not use regular stayman? ZolakarML: how do you know if reg stayman or puppet? grizz: you must agree beforehand to use regular stayman or puppet grizz: and 3!c as well as the responses must be alerted huber225: why do most people play puppet over 2 nt and not lnt? grizz: good question grizz: the problem with 2NT is the hand not quite big enough to open 2!c, but has a 5M grizz: there is no such problem with 1NT grizz: and of course you may open 1NT with 5M, and use Puppet to find fits grizz: the prevailing wisdom is that it's better in most cases just to open the major grizz: rather than lose the major fit if ops interfere jaf1935: I think over 1nt they play also but they bid instead of 2 !c they bid 3!c immediately as puppet grizz: that is one way, yes grizz: some use !c as 5 card stayman at both levels all the time grizz: but let's get back to the 4M problem grizz: a pair may agree to play 2!C as puppet over 1NT grizz: if so it must be alerted gimit: Sorry, isn't 3 NT better? grizz: possibly grizz: S would be entitled to take that view grizz: and bid 3NT directly wyoming33: with 4333 grizz: since the 4333 hand has no ruffs in the short trump hand sylad: dont think it matter whats better at this specific board - its the tool thats important :) grizz: however grizz: N might be 5422, with ruffs in 2 suits grizz: and the hand might be suitable for a dummy reversal grizz: and make more tricks in the suit than at NT grizz: JT9 is a strong enough holding for a dummy reversal grizz: so S would be taking a big risk to make that call here grizz: so what do we do now? jaf1935: 3!d meshmeshaa: 3D grizz: can't bid 3!s, that would show 5 grizz: 3!d shows either one or both 4Ms grizz: and here is where Puppet gets tricky grizz: when opener shows a 4M, and responder has only one, he rebids his SHORT suit grizz: as a transfer grizz: so that the strong hand is concealed grizz: or "right-sided", as some call it grizz: which has 2 great advantages grizz: 1. the strong hand is concealed, so ops can't see it grizz: 2. the lead comes into it, not through it grizz: and since the 2nt hand always has tenaces, any lead coming into it is likely to cost ops a trick grizz: so 3!s says that N has !hs grizz: and S must be alert not to raise !Ss!!! grizz: not having a !h fit, 3NT is the garden spot grizz: does everybody see how the transfer bid is made? jaf1935: yes great ZolakarML: y barbhow: y grizz: with only one 4M, responder bids his SHORT suit as a transfer huber225: I really don't see why it was made why not 3nt? grizz: why doesn't N just bid 3NT? because there might be a 4-4 !hs fit grizz: and 3NT gives up on finding it grizz: here is where many players flounder in Puppet grizz: with a 3M, they forget to ask! jaf1935: 4!s grizz: interesting decision here grizz: S is balanced KlutzyGirl: how to explore for slam? grizz: N has 9 hcp grizz: so N wants to make a mild slam try - but how? huber225: and distribution? grizz: by bidding his lowest ranking ace on the way to 4!S KlutzyGirl: so S knows that !S are agreed? grizz: yes, in this auction !s is the agreed trump suit grizz: since N intentionally bypassed 3NT grizz: !S is trump, and N is slamming KlutzyGirl: what if N's !S and !H ar reversed, how does he inquire about !C? grizz: put that question on hold please, ask me again after i finish this layout KlutzyGirl: or just bid 3NT? KlutzyGirl: ok grizz: now N knows that they are missing the !DA grizz: so 4!s is high enough grizz: and they bid the good game, without possibly getting too high with RKC jaf1935: no if he got the king he could also bid cuebid control grizz: any questions? bmr65: How could the hand get to !C as trump huber225: you have slam? grizz: turns out this one makes if the !HK is onside jaf1935: yes he got the !d k grizz: looks like !c slam can't be found on this hand if you play this Italian cuebid style KlutzyGirl: my question that's on hold...? grizz: if 4!c were natural, the double fit can be found and the !c slam perhaps could be found grizz: ok, what was the question again? KlutzyGirl: if N's !S and !H reversed grizz: then 3NT would be the bid KlutzyGirl: can u find !C fit grizz: you can find the !c fit if 4!c is natural grizz: and you would have to decide beforehand whether it was natural or cue in this sequence grizz: minor slams are always such a problem to find KlutzyGirl: sometimes you'd definitely want to try for a minor slam so how would you do that after finding no M fit? grizz: especially in NT auctions sylad: 2nt - 3!s =? grizz: possible grizz: but that gives up on finding a major kenberg: even in clubs you have to pick up the spades, no? five Cs, 5Ss D and H if you get the spades right, either as trump grizz: playing 3!s as Minor Suit Stayman is an option grizz: but that gives up on the !s fit grizz: and with only 9 hcp in the N, i think exploring for !s fit should come first grizz: although of course others can take different views KlutzyGirl: i am just wondering as general tactic KlutzyGirl: when N has a bigger hand with similar shape bmr65: any way N could splinter !H as a description of the hand? grizz: splinters in NT auctions are difficult - i play such a system over 1NT with one partner, but it's not for the faint of heart or memory :) KlutzyGirl: lol bmr65: :) grizz: let's look at some other hands KlutzyGirl: memory is why i never tried puppet! grizz: lol grizz: W might bid a frisky 3!s here, but let's not do that today KlutzyGirl: if vul were reversed..... grizz: sure grizz: interesting problem for N now grizz: since S might have a small doubleton, 3NT might be the best spot grizz: but with 11 hcp, slam is a possibility KlutzyGirl: wouldn't S bid 4!H? grizz: S could superaccept grizz: that solves N's problem KlutzyGirl: lol dogoronan1: wouldn't 3!S be a Ace showing superaccept? grizz: could be, yes grizz: either method gets N rolling toward slam grizz: and S knows that N has no aces to cue grizz: 1430 grizz: it is not possible for S to have only one ace [5C, 1430] [grizz: N asks about the trump Q with 5D] grizz: so 5NT says that N has the !HK, grizz: and the point of this hand is that even if you play Puppet, regular Jacoby transfers still work jaf1935: 2 losers by both KlutzyGirl: how would N ask for the trump Q? grizz: y, and slam still depends on picking up the !CQ dogoronan1: 5!D grizz: 5!D would ask for the Q KlutzyGirl: and 5!H denies it? grizz: 5!h denies grizz: if S had an outside K, he would bid that suit showing both the Q and that K grizz: S has the Q, but no outside K jaf1935: great KlutzyGirl: cool KlutzyGirl: thanks! grizz: so there are several ways to bid it, but all roads lead to the !H slam jaf1935: two losers there by both bmr65: I am not a gerber fan but same results using gerber? I still see it used (improperly) on BBO ->bmr65: good question, but i want to stay on puppet :) jaf1935: no one in !d grizz: let's pretend that S dealt this hand grizz: bbo rotates the deal and vul automatically, i can't override it grizz: another interesting decision grizz: 3NT is the correct answer if the hand is weaker jaf1935: why north passes with 14hcps and 4 cards !c grizz: we are pretending that S dealt grizz: so we can get a puppet auction out of the hand jaf1935: ok jaf1935: aha thx grizz: denying a !h fit, but suggesting !S grizz: but 3NT would end the auction here grizz: so what do we do now? jaf1935: 3nt grizz: and play in 3NT? ZolakarML: slam is there dogoronan1: 3!S, since S could be 5-4 in Majors grizz: excellent dogoronan1: but then he would be 5422, not really balanced grizz: i like 4!c as Gerber here grizz: clearly we are in the slam zone grizz: !d=0 grizz: !h=1 grizz: !s=2 grizz: NT=3 grizz: !c=4 aces grizz: it's unusual for the asking hand to have none, but so be it Canuckstan: wouldn't !D be "all or none" showing 4? grizz: that might be, by partnership agreement, but not standard grizz: simple step responses are standard KlutzyGirl: right i forgot it goes up for each A, that happens so rarely loubel: pure plain gerber (no RKGERber) :) grizz: and if N gets greedy here, 7NT makes even though the !dK is offside grizz: but he would have a lot of explaining to do if it didn't! KlutzyGirl: lol wyoming33: accoring to Root !D shows 0 or 4 grizz: there is such a thing as RKC Gerber, but i don't want to get sidetracked here grizz: let's stay on Puppet KlutzyGirl: !H being the lowest ranking K S has? grizz: N knows that S has the !SQ, and the !HK, and is missing the !DK grizz: 5!d asks for the Q of trump grizz: N could instead ask for kings grizz: !s is trump grizz: the 6!h bid shows the !SQ and the !HK, but denies the !DK grizz: so N knows they are off a K, and 6 is high enough KlutzyGirl: can you simply ask for the # of Kings like regular Blkwd? grizz: yes, in fact even if you play 1430 or 0314 for aces, the answer for kings is either simple step responses, 0,1,2,3 or Specific Kings, showing the lowest ranking one first KlutzyGirl: do you think knowing specific K is more useful? grizz: Bridge World Standard uses Specific Kings grizz: so the prevailing expert opinion in the usa is that Specific Kings works better more often KlutzyGirl: hmm, ok ty KlutzyGirl: are prevailing expert opinions all that useful for us mere mortals? joyable: lol grizz: hang on for a minute KlutzyGirl: you know what I mean. they KNOW what they're doing! grizz: http://www.bridgeworld.com/default.asp?d=bw_standard&f=bwsall.html grizz: this is where you will find Bridge World Standard KlutzyGirl: ty grizz: the prevailing expert opinion about bidding grizz: it's a 2/1 system grizz: with weak 2s, etc grizz: and BWS is 38 pages of default treatment about various bidding issues grizz: some with minority views grizz: but if you want to know what expert opinion really is, this is the first place to look grizz: and of course it changes over time, the most recent revision was 2001 grizz: might be a minor slam here, but with only 10 points it will be iffy grizz: and S would be operating here looking for a 5-2 fit joyable: with those nice diamonds you dont want to try? jaf1935: no 5 not six grizz: they are tempting, no? KlutzyGirl: can you explain the bidding sequence? grizz: if you play 4-way transfers, you can transfer into !d grizz: but grizz: you should have 6 for that grizz: so i don't recommend it here [with only 5] dogoronan1: what about quantitive 4N smudge1: how would 4-way tx work? i don't know it at all. meshmeshaa: can u transfer with 4 minors? joyable: n jaf1935: n meshmeshaa: so whats up there? grizz: actually 6!c is not a terrible contract here, depends on !c split and finding the !DK onside kenberg: Interesting. 6N making on any adverse distr. (4+2+2+4=12) while 6C needs a little luck grizz: y, there are slam prospects in both minors and NT, but we are getting away from puppet again :( joyable: lol KlutzyGirl: lol grizz: 3NT is how opener denies either major grizz: note: 3NT is not drop-dead, just the correct answer to the 3!c question grizz: if S has extras, he can continue grizz: but here clearly 3NT is the end of the road smudge1: ok. thanks. grizz: not much drama here grizz: regular transfers still operate dogoronan1: again why not superaccept? grizz: with 4333? some would deduct a point from N and open 1C, rebid 2NT grizz: so N has no business superaccepting joyable: ? jaf1935: not enough power i think joyable: K grizz: S would make the same bid minus one of the Kings joyable: so no puppet -simple transfer to hearts.. grizz: right joyable: love these hands... grizz: again, 3!s is a transfer, so N must resist the urge to raise with 4!!! KlutzyGirl: now let's say N bids 3NT, what should S do? grizz: with 5 hcp, i would pass as S KlutzyGirl: ok, but let's say S has 10 HCP grizz: expecting N to have something in !s grizz: looking for !d slam? KlutzyGirl: yes grizz: 4!d by S is natural and forcing KlutzyGirl: i always have trouble with those hands grizz: but we have left puppet behind again KlutzyGirl: lol grizz: again, the hand where many players forget to ask is one that has one or 2 3-card majors wyoming33: LOL grizz: !D announces 1 or 2 5M, 3NT is signoff alexiss: 4M KlutzyGirl: 4 wyoming33: have we gotten into where responder has 5/4 in majors grizz: 5/4 in the majors? i'll look for one next grizz: got 140 to choose from here grizz: how about this one? wyoming33: right 4 - meshmeshaa: but then a 4/4 fit will always be lost?? wyoming33: there it is grizz: 4!d says that responder has both majors, asks opener to pick one grizz: and grizz: there is another possible response here too, by partnership agreement grizz: 4!d can be both majors with no slam interest grizz: and 4!c can be both majors WITH slam interest, and triggers a cuebid sequence grizz: this is a much better treatment than transferring into that crummy !s suit grizz: imho, that is :) wyoming33: dont check to see of opener may have 3 !S or dont care? if !S better suit? grizz: S cannot check back for a 3 card !s fit grizz: S must either transfer or bid Puppet at his first call grizz: and the transfer would be wrong with the 4-card !h suit grizz: Puppet caters to more different kinds of hands, so that call would be correct more often grizz: and this is a game of odds, after all grizz: there is always room for judgment grizz: if !S were AKQJT and !H were 2345... wyoming33: thought better to play in 4/4 rather than 5/3? grizz: it's almost always better to play in 4/4 if you also have a 5/3 side fit grizz: for 3 reasons grizz: 1. either hand can become the master hand grizz: 2. you can take ruffs in either hand grizz: 3. you can discard losers on the long winners in the side suit grizz: so even if there is a 5-3 !s fit, it's better to play in 4-4!hs joyable: this hand makes 6 hearts but not 6 spades. grizz: sure, there are 2 pitches on long !ss grizz: with the 3-3 split grizz: any other questions on this one? KlutzyGirl: if N has both 4M, what to bid? wyoming33: 3!D KlutzyGirl: over 4!D? grizz: N takes his pick if S bids 4!D grizz: usually opting for a better suit KlutzyGirl: no rule than grizz: nope, science goes only sooooo far KlutzyGirl: hey who won, the scientists or the naturals? grizz: at Round 7, Zia was ahead 235 to 187, or thereabouts KlutzyGirl: what a surprise! lol wyoming33: how many rounds? grizz: i think there was goulash after that, haven't checked back since KlutzyGirl: the nats did well in the goulash i think robzim: I heard the naturalists beat the scientists in the non goulash round -- maybe I heard incorrectly grizz: well, i think we covered most of the possible combinations that can occur with Puppet KlutzyGirl: that was so interesting! KlutzyGirl: it is very complicated grizz: y, so many different possibilities! KlutzyGirl: hard to find others willing to play it grizz: and you must always think about whether a natural bid could be systemic grizz: such as when you have !d, but if you bid them it means majors wyoming33: have to play online so can use notes :) - never remember if face to face KlutzyGirl: lol grizz: lol grizz: that is the case with a lot of conventions grizz: practice helps, a lot wyoming33: yup grizz: if anybody wants some Puppet hands to practice, drop me an email KlutzyGirl: i'd be up for some practice now KlutzyGirl: love some! grizz: they aren't annotated, but you can practice with a partner, or with a GIB KlutzyGirl: gibs, ewww grizz: y, they have their faults wyoming33: they work pretty good as ops - better than none at all grizz: and i also have Goldway practice sheets available for live bidding practice grizz: with N hands on one side, S hand on the other grizz: fold them lengthwise, bid them out, then compare notes beryl8: thanks....will be happy to recognize if/when O's play puppet! grizz: ok gang, my fingers are stubs so gtg grizz: thx for coming, i'll see you next week wyoming33: LOL - I bet = after 2 sessions - nite :) grizz: bye now