club2over1 (Lobby): => Club: Grizz lesson taking place in the club now. All welcome to attend. grizz: hi all and wlc grizz: i would like to get back more to defense, leads play and signals grizz: in the context of defending real hands grizz: so today we will defend against the robots grizz: these are random hands, selected only so that NS defend grizz: and i will make comments about defensive plans, leads, play and signals grizz: we will assume for purposes of the lesson that we play standard signals grizz: so for Attitude, a high card encourages grizz: and if it's a Count signal, high shows even grizz: so, without further explanation, here we go grizz: hmmm grizz: sounds like a big double fit for ops grizz: if vul were reversed, i would take a shot at 4!s from the S grizz: but not at unfavorable vul grizz: so what should N lead? grizz: first of all, what is N's plan for the defense grizz: 1 probable !h trick grizz: and 1 or 2!s grizz: depending on who has the K club2over1: or A of diamonds if counting opps hands kootenay2: yes then small dia alexiss: single lead grizz: yes, stiff lead is almost mandatory grizz: worst possible would be a !s grizz: S must take stock now wollies: but !D lead is ok but no !D ruff after the A huber225: oh I was leading from S grizz: noooooooooooo, lead from AQ is awful grizz: in a suit contract grizz: unless pd has bid the suit kootenay2: the dia ruff grizz: now it's S's turn to plan grizz: EW bid !ds strongly grizz: so the lead must be a stiff grizz: so N has a !d ruff coming grizz: so what happens then? grizz: N can't get back to S for another ruff grizz: and that !c suit in dummy will be good for some pitches, since W is short in the black suits grizz: so it looks like this is the last time S will be in for the lead grizz: if N has a !h trick, then the !dA, !d ruff and !h trick are all the defense is likely to take analisals: why not lreturn a diamond for a ruff from north? grizz: because we can't both give a ruff and set up !s grizz: maybe we can set up another trick in !s grizz: 6 is an encouraging card grizz: oops. misclick alexiss: why not the Q spade whiz: lolol grizz: duh! grizz: looks like N has 2 more tricks, a !s and !h grizz: and the !s may go away if N fools around grizz: here is the first opportunity for S to give any kind of a signal grizz: here it would be suit preference, since dummy is void in !s now grizz: the trump suit doesn't count grizz: so a high card shows a !d card, and low shows a !c Iibby: for club lead grizz: any middle card says S is broke grizz: but he does have the !CQ, so !s2 calls for a !c lead grizz: also says that it's ok for N to pitch !cs, on the run of any long suit grizz: lol cc1313: GIBs have their days lol grizz: well, the robots did not shine on that one dae: 2 d is passable bid not good? crysalid: great grizz: ask questions in the open please, so all can hear dae: 2 d is passable-not good bid? grizz: any questions on defense? grizz: ok, i'll rustle up another hand grizz: E is a passed hand, and without a !h fit 2!d is passable but that's not all bad grizz: 5!d has no play, off 3 aces grizz: and NT is a nighmare on !d lead grizz: or a !c or !h, for that matter wakullaman: you would not lead a !D after taking the A? grizz: not with the JTxxx in dummy, no wollies: sorry but a !D return would have lead to the same result grizz: !d is not a source of tricks, but N couldn't risk leading from something good in the majors grizz: oh, i'm sorry grizz: S had the choice of giving pd a !d ruff grizz: or setting up a !s trick wollies: right grizz: would only get in once, so had to choose wollies: very true yes wakullaman: the !D was a sure thing...the !S was not kootenay2: agree grizz: also true wakullaman: from S pt of view grizz: but with the !cs in dummy for pitches, S's best plan is to set up a !s trick right away grizz: the plan is not without risk grizz: but it's a good one wakullaman: ok huber225: with 3 passes does west always open with l heart? analisals: yes makes sense grizz: any other questions before we go to the next one? analisals: no grizz: after 3 passes, if i'm West i bid 4!h right away huber225: me too grizz: suspecting that NS has a !s fit grizz: and that if EW fool around too much, NS might find it brianna: true grizz: ok, what if anything should N do now? grizz: after a preempt, and advance of the preempt? analisals: vul nothing cc1313: x grizz: if W has 4!s, they probably bid 4!s grizz: so i like X for 2 reasons analisals: I wouldn't at that level pard has to bid 4 of something analisals: lol brianna: x is best cc1313: make em lol grizz: NS are guaranteed to have a fit, if S has no defensive values grizz: so if S pulls it, they won't have a disaster grizz: but brianna: s should pass analisals: yes grizz: if S has !s length AND defensive values, S cannot X to show that hand grizz: since X would have been takeout grizz: so N must give S the option of defending 3!s doubled brianna: -2 or 3 grizz: which S is delighted to do, with 4!s, 2 outside aces and some quacks Infidel: 3S should make... kenberg: Yes, I think he can make this grizz: might be kenberg: altho not this way huber225: since N says he has hearts, a heart lead? grizz: showing a !c card grizz: well brianna: awful lead grizz: that didn't work out so well grizz: let's try another line of defense brianna: my lead Jh brianna: no Ah then J grizz: there is a rule of defense for when you have length in trumps, a side suit and shortness veron911: i think lead A!h J!h grizz: the rule is counterintuitive Infidel: H ruff costs the natural S trick grizz: you should NOT go hunting for ruffs grizz: but rather force declarer to ruff grizz: and hope you can do that often enough that declarer loses trump control grizz: and defenders can cash their long suit winners grizz: so let's try that line grizz: N leads back his original 4th best to show count grizz: and S has an opportunity for a signal here grizz: since N knows his attitude about !cs, with declarer void now grizz: S can show a side suit entry whiz: you dont ruff kenberg: seems there are six spade tricks and three diamonds unless the defense gets five first, which can be done but requires almost double dummy defense grizz: lol i don't know why the gib didn't ruff wollies: loser on loser Dianne0516: Drinking again grizz: yes, maybe the robot knows about the forcing defense cc1313: gib is having bad hair day grizz: so S knows that there is no future in !cs wollies: cheaters lol :) cc1313: bet they are whispering to each other :) wollies: right grizz: and with E pitching !hs, might lose his ace if doesn't play it now veron911: bad hand play of robot lol grizz: 8 encourages Infidel: why would Gib not cover??? grizz: lol one can only guess brianna: why now no ruff timkin: still bad hair day lol grizz: lol wollies: Pete overtake the !H and play 1 back grizz: N must play S for a natural trump trick(s), since he passed the X kenberg: huh? grizz: ??? Infidel: gib is drunk cc1313: rofl grizz: random play by the bots cc1313: that's the gib I had the other day!!! kenberg: I have had a bottle of wine, Gib must have had two! grizz: lol veron911: eny way -1 but i think the lead must be A!h J!h grizz: different line of defense, big difference in score grizz: double dummy that's fine grizz: but unlikely that you would find it at the table wollies->Club: there is no beat at all grizz: should make, bots made a mistake grizz: but how many of you would pull the X as S? kenberg: A of hearts, Jack taken 3 back ruffed, small club to K, heart back works I think crysalid->Club: i have a terrible time leading away from A Q of clubs.............what was your thinkng on this,? grizz: E ruffs with a middle card, S still only gets 1!s analisals: is there a name for that kind of double? grizz: it's a normal takeout double analisals: ok grizz: but at that level is cooperative wollies: thrn he can ruff with the K and finesse the Q 3x grizz: meaning that S doesn't have to take it out, if he has good trumps and side defensive values kenberg: True, ruffing with the king on the 4th heart and he still makes, you are right analisals: gotcha grizz: would anybody take out the X with the S hand? grizz: not me wollies: I would bid 3!C's over 2 !S's in 2nd hand grizz: NS does not have game grizz: so a 1 trick set doubled will be a max crysalid: can you tell me about your lead,.?? from A Q OF CLUBS. Infidel: might visualize a X-ruff...4c looks fairly good grizz: bid 3!c directly? grizz: bad idea grizz: because in a weak 2 auction, 3rd hand is the dangerous hand wollies: I would yes to bid is dangerous but NOT bidding is more dabgerous grizz: frequently is the best hand at the table crysalid: ARE YOU COUNTING ON YOUR PARTNER FOR THE KNG OF CLUBS WITH HIS DBL. grizz: furthermore grizz: with your length in !s, that makes it less likely that EW have a fit grizz: and grizz: if EW don't have a fit, then NS don't either alexiss: you think 4 or 5cl cant make here? wollies: after 2!S opening ... I have 4 and pretty sure there will be a fit for us grizz: and in a misfit situation, you should lean more toward defense than declaring grizz: give S the !CAKQxxx and the bid looks better grizz: but that's pretty weak suit for a 3 level bid Infidel: did Gib's 3S explicitly show 3 spades? not sure how they bid grizz: if you want to know about a gib bid, click on it kenberg: it says it shows 3+ grizz: y, and 4-14 hcp Infidel: ok...so S can see the S void across the street grizz: wide range grizz: exactly wollies: aagree Pete but as I said .. pretty sure about a fit togheter in NS because I have 4 !s's grizz: what if the N and W hands are reversed? grizz: where is the fit now? wollies: we still have a fit wollies: a 5-3 grizz: 8 card !c fit at the 3 level grizz: not so good grizz: and ops are off the hook for a doubled penalty kenberg: Assuming N has no spades and four (only) hearts (could have five) then S can see that his clubs may not fare well on defense crysalid: im still curious about the clublead? grizz: i would like to move on now, if that's ok crysalid: just because ofyour partners dbl.? grizz: sure, pd must have some values, not just shape wollies: I also agree I wouldnt have passed 3 !S's with that S hand after your t/o X grizz: and clearly has nothing in !s crysalid: thxs grizz: show of hands now grizz: how may would bid 3!h, as a Law bid now? Chas_P: include me in whiz: me Infidel: no Bergen? kenberg: Me 2 analisals: I would kenberg: NV Infidel: y, sorry: didn't see X kenberg: Not because of the Law, I just think it rioght\ grizz: a few considerations here grizz: N is a 3rd seat opener grizz: could be light grizz: might even have just a 4-bagger grizz: and S is balanced, no stiff or void Chas_P: favorable vul crysalid: but not vul i would bid 2h grizz: without shortness, the Law breaks down grizz: however grizz: vul is favorable grizz: but grizz: S has !s grizz: if EW are 4-4, they probably go to town in !s Infidel: If N has opened a 4-card suit, he should also be less than full opener, and EW have game: becomes even more important to get in their way whiz: go town or down :) grizz: but if so, a preemptive !h raise won't talk them out of it veron911: pass grizz: or as my good friend dry-fly says, "go big or go home" timkin: 4H crysalid: hmmm yes grizz: btw, what would S do with a 10-12 hcp hand and !h fit? whiz: pass 3h crysalid: i like that Infidel: 2H...:) wollies: lost the name who said that 3 !H is the bid starts with a L kenberg: bid 2C as I play analisals: cue bid grizz: nothing to cue over a X analisals: oh no alexiss: XX kenberg: I like Drury on over X dogoronan1: 2NT jordan timkin: Drury over dbl ? Infidel: 2N Jordan dae: jpordan grizz: xx is possible, but tends to deny a fit grizz: Jordan dae: Jordan grizz: if S had another 5-6 points, 2NT Jordan would show that hand over the X timkin: Jordan/Truscott dae: but S does NOT have limit raise grizz: not on this hand, no grizz: Jordan was a sidebar issue crysalid: in standard doesnt xx also mean 10 ish pts whiz: aftera dbl 3h show weak and fit grizz: sure, but still tends to deny a fit kenberg: 2N Jordan is OK but may not be so great if partner opened light and we are vul (we are not vul here of coiurse) grizz: especially if the pair does play Jordan timkin: where are they playing lol grizz: if the pair plays Jordan, and bids XX instead of 2NT Infidel: It is possible to play Drury "on" over the double... grizz: that means trouble for E grizz: possible i suppose by partnership agreement grizz: but not necessary if you play Jordan grizz: because now you can distinguish between a simple raise, preemptive, or constructive grizz: 2!h is simple grizz: 3!h is preemptive grizz: and 2NT is constructive grizz: LR, actually wollies: isnt 3!H called truscott ? grizz: jordan and truscott are 2 names for the same convention wollies: ok thx grizz: hmm grizz: this hand just got interesting timkin: advocdates in two different areas (of US) Infidel: cheeky Gib... analisals: I like JOrdan bid timkin: 3NT ! grizz: i think that jordan and truscott invented the convention at the same time, and without collaboration wollies: I let them grizz: thoughts here in the S grizz: 1. gotcha! kenberg: nothing to think about grizz: 2. don't want you to run timkin: Jordan did not invent it -- he used it and people copied from him kenberg: prempt, then X? Not me grizz: because surely ops have a better fit somewhere wollies: pass what we do against 4!d's ?? grizz: what should N lead, and why? kenberg: I wd lead a trump grizz: which one? grizz: and why? alexiss: yes..A Infidel: slam-bang? grizz: bingo kenberg: probably the four alexiss: shorten decl in trummp kenberg: oops, thot S on lead grizz: absolutely maysie: excuse me - why would W answer double? Why not leave in for a penalty - BEC. has lots of HEARTS Infidel: this should get bloody grizz: i don't know why gib would pull the X kenberg: Gib sleeping, K of clubs better than 9 grizz: so, a couple lessons here grizz: when ops are in a terrible contract, it's sometimes wise not to X grizz: for fear they will run to a better one grizz: second: grizz: when you have Ax or Axx of trump, consider a trump lead analisals: how do you make that distinction grizz: particularly when you have a big fit with pard grizz: the decision is easy when you have 5 trumps like these grizz: and outside defensive values cc1313: my pard usually has the big fit :) wollies: didnt like the GIB x grizz: :) alexiss: i always thought for the first X you promise 4 of the other major...or a strong hand...then distrib.doesnt matter grizz: back to trump leads grizz: right, E should have had one of those hands grizz: but doesn't grizz: and that's one reason why i do not recommend offshape doubles grizz: i assume 4441 for a takeout double dae: it only promises minimum of three in a suit grizz: and not more than 1 card off that grizz: only promises 3 of each suit grizz: but should guarantee 4 of any unbid major leonora3->Club: the first x may be only 3 but the 2nd definite? grizz: the seond X was for penalty grizz: since E is void, expected trump length in W wollies: he better could lie a !c and bid 2NT over 1 !H for the minors !! grizz: not smart though, since W is under the !h opener Infidel->Club: err...I'd disagree: second X still for takeout, just showing better hand, unwilling to give up grizz: it's a matter of style grizz: one of my partners plays anything under the 5 level for takeout grizz: another style is that the first 2 Xes are for takeout vinny3147: should never had Xed in 1st place. Bid 2D grizz: y, i agree grizz: but we are concentrating on defense here, not the gib misbidding grizz: :) leonora3: are gibs teachable LOL vinny3147->Club: LOL grizz: lol dont' think so grizz: that's why i quit playing money bridge grizz: the bots are playing with MY money! Dianne0516: They need to attend Grizz's classes leonora3: wish i had known before i tried a few robot races grizz: uff da wollies: Gib is a good analiser no good bidders or declarers grizz: i agree there grizz: what should N do here? kenberg: I guess Gib gets better at slower speeds, but then it's at slower speeds grizz: that's what i hear, but they suck at all speeds that i have seen dae: 2h vinny3147: 2H's kenberg: I pass, but I'm weird dee_dee_20: I pass alexiss: 1!h Infidel: 2h grizz: i almost always pass with length in ops bid suit dee_dee_20: I must be weird too grizz: besides grizz: the !h suit is long, but weak grizz: no concentration of honors in it grizz: more points outside !hs than inside grizz: hmmm grizz: what now? Infidel: at least it HAS an honor...:) grizz: lol wollies: now S has same problem :) grizz: we have all seen folks preempt on trash grizz: and sometimes it works grizz: just often enough that sometime they get a good result grizz: and then the random good result reinforces bad bidding grizz: just like pavlov's dogs Infidel: entropy is good grizz: lol entropy is inevitable grizz: but should S bid here? grizz: a couple random thoughts grizz: the !s suit is bad, but not awful analisals: I think I would bid spades here 10 and 9 help grizz: 10 hcp grizz: decent defensive values crysalid: yes he is in pas out seat kenberg: I find the spade bid here more attractive than H bid by N grizz: and the suit is 'safe' grizz: by that i mean, it's a suit the ops could have bid, but didn't grizz: example: wollies: an old Dutch WC always said a 6 card is biddable once headed by at least J10 .... wollies: His name is Hans Kreijns:) grizz: if the auction goes 1!S-P-1NT-? grizz: there is no safe suit grizz: since ops could not bid them at the 1 level grizz: it might still be correct to bid, but the other suits are not safe grizz: i like 2!s here grizz: NV grizz: and equal kenberg: huh grizz: neither vul kenberg: I bid 3C with that E hand Infidel: E is a wuss grizz: y, and who wouldn't? grizz: maybe the robots have learned from going set so often here :) kenberg: got em scared wollies: ok all was a pleasure to be here with you and Pete thx for the lessons .... my bed is calling its 3am here bye all !! grizz: yikes! thx for staying up with us! kenberg: night night grizz: this will be the last hand crysalid: thanks for the lessons and how often do you do this.? grizz: every saturday at this time, except when under the weather crysalid: great thankz dae: but the schedule says 4:30 Not 6 :30 dae: and it says Indy at 6 grizz: i do this 4:30 pacific time, not sure what the schedule says grizz: and 2:30 in the BIL grizz: thx for coming, and i hope to see you all next weekend grizz: any questions on this last hand? kenberg: sure. If E bids 3C like a bot should, id it passed out? kenberg: thx grizz: good question grizz: hang on, i'll fire the bots whiz: yes kenberg: I think y also, but not entirely clear grizz: S already spake his piece grizz: so final decision is in the N grizz: random thoughts from the N grizz: if S had a good hand, he would X first grizz: not a real good !s fit here grizz: nice shortness in !c, and a couple nice looking kings grizz: but grizz: if 2!s was of the 'advance sacrifice' type, then S already borrowed one of those kings to make his bid grizz: and even if S has 6!s, LOTT says 3 level is unsafe grizz: furthermore grizz: the Barry Crane rules grizz: 1. get in early grizz: 2. get out early grizz: 3. the 3 level is dangerous grizz: well, it's too late for 1. grizz: but 3 applies :) grizz: but i'm open to other opinions grizz: this is a judgment hand kenberg: must go, enjoyed, thx grizz grizz: thx ken, hope to see you next week grizz: ok, if there are no more comments or questions, we will wrap this up for today grizz: thx for coming, and i'll see you next week grizz: my pleasure, bye now