Club 2/1 has been renamed BBO-IAC, for Intermediate-Advanced Club grizz: hi gang, glad you found us in the new place bbo_iac->Club: Grizz's session about to begin in the bbo intermediate advanced club. (the old 2/1 club) We are now found about 6 down from the top in private clubs area. Session today random hands, bidding play and defense. All welcome grizz: there may be some confusion today, with the new club name grizz: so i will wait a couple minutes before starting wanda310: no doubt bbo_iac: small but select group to start with I guess Catleya: can you still talk to the members in the old name bbo_iac: no grizz: well, it seems that the smart ones have found us :) bbo_iac: some are coming after they get out of tourneys grizz: Chat logs and hand records are stored in your computer for later review. For information on how to retrieve them, go the BIL homepage or email me. grizz: I teach private individual, pair, and small group lessons. If you would like to know more please email me at Grizz@GrizzBridge.com. grizz: And archives of old sessions are available at GrizzBridge.com, on the Lessons and Archives page. grizz: There will be lots of questions. I want to address them all, but in a manner helpful to all, so please ask them in open chat. grizz: As always i encourage participation by all kibs grizz: So jump right in with a comment, question, or bid at any time, but please do it in open chat grizz: Since I can't always respond to private chat Catleya: the problem is when everyone begins to talk so the teacher can not talk grizz: we do random hands in this class, so all aspects of bidding, play and defense are open for discussion grizz: any thoughts about what to bid with the S cards? trafalgar2: 2!s p is passed Ishudav: 2!S camilleln: 2s pegasus1: I am tempted to bid 3S grizz: i am a big fan of disciplined weak 2's, but the rules are more flexible after 2 passes Ishudav: y Catleya: dont y need 7 cards for 3 grizz: in 1st or 2nd seat i never bid a weak 2 with 4 cards in a major grizz: and since partner is passed, odds are that 4th seat has the best hand at the table grizz: so after 2 passes, weak 2s get really creative grizz: frequently on 5 card suits grizz: sometimes with a side 4-card major grizz: so S should not be deterred here by the 4-card !h suit grizz: the only question is, 2!s or 3!s? grizz: pass is not an option! Catleya: because i side 4crd major is a hinder to bid weak grizz: side 4M is a problem in 1 or 2 seat, if partner has an opening hand and that suit grizz: no such problem after 2 passes grizz: since game is not possible grizz: 3 possibilities here grizz: pass, and EW easily find their 3NT game, maybe a minor slam grizz: now W has a problem grizz: the hand is too big for 2NT grizz: though it has NT shape grizz: now E has a problem grizz: if he bids 4!c, they have gone past 3NT grizz: if he passes, how does pard know that he has some stuff? adi_agm: dbl grizz: this is called a Responsive Double grizz: denying a fit in the obvious suit, but showing 'cards' and stuff outside grizz: and W can pass with the right kind of hand grizz: so does W have the right kind of hand to pass? Campus61: I would think so adi_agm: no ELIZA42: get more to play in game Campus61: might try 4 diamonds grizz: E only needs 6 hcp for 3NT to be a good bet grizz: and must have at least that for the Responsive Double grizz: and a game, even NV, scores better than a 1 or 2-trick set grizz: there are no guarantees here, but 3NT rates to score better than 3!sX more often than not grizz: the play is a no-brainer, with 5!c, 1!d, 2!h and 1!s off the top pegasus1: I still would open 3S in 3rd & hope P would compete to the 5-level if need be. grizz: so let's see what happens if S thinks 'outside the box' Catleya: isnt it dangerous to play nt after a weak bid trafalgar2: 6!d is on, how to get there? grizz: with any kind of preemptive interference, slam is hard to find Chas_P: there is no scientific bidding after a preempt. :) ELIZA42: thats the reason for preempts grizz: yup, best to look for the safest spot grizz: now W has a different problem grizz: if he doubles and E bids, they are above 3NT grizz: with no guarantee of a fit in either minor grizz: here is what W should be thinking: grizz: S has 5-10 hcp grizz: i have 20 pegasus1: N must use The Law to compete grizz: that leaves 10-15 between N and E grizz: if they split, they each have 5-8 grizz: if E has 5-8 average hcp, 3NT makes grizz: if he has 8 of the very best possible cards, maybe slam is on grizz: but 3NT rates as the safest spot to play grizz: any other opinions about the W hand here? grizz: ok, let's switch to N now ELIZA42: he furthers the preempt grizz: pegasus thinks the Law of Total Tricks requires N to compete to 4!S - yea or nay? trafalgar2: no grizz: a couple thoughts here Ishudav: yea here - cos N places s with 6 cards - 3rd in hand trafalgar2: vul wrong, hand too flat Chas_P: white vs red i might grizz: S may have only 6, being a 3rd hand opener grizz: still they have 10!s Catleya: isnt ther a way to tell partner after bidding 3nt that E has the minors? grizz: and the Law suggests that maybe they should compete grizz: but there are adjustments to the Law grizz: one is that the Law breaks down on flat hands grizz: and 4333 is terrible shape for a LOTT bid grizz: too many losers grizz: but N knows something else too grizz: and that is that EW probably have enough hcp for the NT game pegasus1: It is no doubt a sac but? grizz: if pd opens a weak 2 or a 3-level preempt, you can expect him to have about 8 hcp grizz: so the question is, can they beat 3NT? grizz: NS probably have 5 !s tricks and the !dK if they can score them before EW reel off 9 grizz: so maybe they beat it, or maybe not grizz: then the question is, will 4!s be a good sacrifice? pegasus1: What is vulnerability here? grizz: so, first question is, do you expect 3NT to make? grizz: nobody vul pegasus1: Y grizz: if so, then is 4!s a good sac? ELIZA42: not X grizz: if N and S are mirror hands, they could lose 2-3 in each suit except !s pegasus1: I think they make 6NT or maybe 7 grizz: and down 3 doubled is more than ops would get by making 3NT grizz: there is one other risk trafalgar2: u might push them to slam grizz: if they push ops past 3NT, ops may be pushed into a makeable slam! grizz: so if i'm N, i pass here grizz: again, with no guarantees grizz: so what does E do now grizz: if i'm E, i think that W has already bid my hand too, and i pass Catleya: 4 !C? grizz: that works on this layout, but might not on many others grizz: and by trying to find a better place to land, you might find a worse one :( grizz: this is a perfect example of a judgment hand all around the table pegasus1: what about 5C (gerber)? grizz: sure, there are magic hands across the table that might produce spectacular results, but in a preemptive auction science goes out the window Catleya: if w is bidding 3nt it shows a strong hand ... so it would be possible a 5!C grizz: again, super Gerber works here but on many hands it won't grizz: and would partner know it was Gerber? grizz: probably not ELIZA42: is there such a bid as super g 5 c? pegasus1: P SHOULD know is Gerber grizz: by partnership agreement, yes ELIZA42: never heard that Charley174: What about a t.o. dbl for w inplace of 3n grizz: the point is that the NT structure is negated by the preempt peppygal: I had somebody bid me 3 nt over a 3 sp opening...claiming it was unusual nt for minors grizz: so who knows what 4!c means? grizz: Stayman? grizz: !c game inv? grizz: !c slam inv? ELIZA42: cue bid A of clubs grizz: South African Texas transfer? grizz: there is risk of disaster if E takes any action at all Charley174: i like that grizz: even though he has good minors, and a source of tricks in !c grizz: the auction loses all definition hereafter pegasus1: To my limited nowloedge, a 4C bid here would be a C suit pegasus1: knowledge grizz: probably, but have you ever discussed this auction with partner? ANY partner? pegasus1: Y grizz: so all things considered, E is probably best to pass Charley174: y grizz: though there might be a minor slam being missed grizz: and the preempt has done its evil deed :) pegasus1: hurray! Ishudav: I think it would be difficult to bid the slam even without the pre-empt, but the pre-empt has made sure. grizz: for those of you who have never heard of it, South African Texas is a 4-level transfer, !c to !h, and !d to !s grizz: y, the preempt worked pegasus1: TY, not aware of that bid grizz: and here is another valuable expert tip: Campus61: you and Luis like them better grizz: experts aim for averages and tops, while avoiding bottoms ELIZA42: gd tip grizz: in a dangerous auction like this, experts will tend to bid the 3NT game grizz: and those who take the gamble and bid a minor slam, they will have a top Charley174: at worst - an average score grizz: ON THIS BOARD!!! grizz: and lots of bottoms on other boards to go along with it! pegasus1: non vul, how badly do N/S do in a S contract? grizz: lose 2!h, 1!s, 1!d, 1!c grizz: down only 2 for 300 pegasus1: Thx grizz: 2!c, sry grizz: 500 grizz: so N was smart to pass the 3NT with his crummy 4333, even with the big !s fit grizz: and should pat pd on the back for keeping ops out of slam :) grizz: ready for another? trafalgar2: y pegasus1: yes! ELIZA42: yes!!!!!!!!!! grizz: let me play a card and claim, so the hand will save on your computers grizz: N has an interesting choice here grizz: game is on grizz: and they have a !h fit grizz: but how best to proceed? grizz: Jacoby 2NT? grizz: splinter? Charley174: 2s? ELIZA42: 1 spade trafalgar2: 1!s grizz: 1!s? ELIZA42: no hurry grizz: first, 2!s is a weak bid in modern methods Campus61: bobh2 teach Jac2nt with 3 trump grizz: i haven't seen a strong jump shift since eisenhower was in the white house peppygal: lol Charley174: that's when i learned it grizz: so next question is, should N splinter with this hand? ELIZA42: no dee_dee_20: you are giving away your age !!!!!!!!!!! grizz: lol it's no secret, grizz is a fossil :) ELIZA42: slow arrival Campus61: what about the more u have the slower you go ? trafalgar2: need 4 trumps to splinter pegasus1: I thinhk not as N has only 3 trump grizz: ok, there are 2 things you should know about splinters grizz: maybe 3 grizz: usually you have 4 trumps grizz: not just 3 grizz: secondly, and this is another inside tip, most experts use splinter not on GF hand but on limit raises! grizz: 10-12, with 4+ trumps and a stiff dee_dee_20: you mean to reach thin games? grizz: right grizz: and third but most importantly, a splinter denies a source of tricks grizz: typically a 4441 with scattered values, or something similar Dianne0516: I like that -- splinters take up too much bidding space on a questionable slam situation grizz: and NO INTEREST in slam grizz: but let's focus on the "source of tricks" issue grizz: and let me change the subject for just a minute and talk about slams grizz: there are 3 basic types of slam hands grizz: 1. overwhelming strength, 33-36 for small, and 37+ for grand slam grizz: 2. freaks with long suits and side controls grizz: 3. double fits grizz: of those 3 types, the double fit is the most common type of slam grizz: and some are made on 25 hcp or less grizz: i even saw one bid and made with 19! grizz: but the only way to find a double fit is to bid it grizz: and that's why if responder has a trump fit and a good second suit, he should bid the second suit first, to let opener assess the possibility of double fit grizz: so Ishudav: even with 4 tr? grizz: yes Ishudav: k grizz: otherwise opener has to guess grizz: so here, N should bid !s instead of splintering !d grizz: a roundabout explanation, but good solid bridge logic grizz: and it has a corollary with Jacoby 2NT too - Campus61: not after ur comments I think now they might be misued grizz: since responder's first duty with GF values and trump fit is to bid a second suit... grizz: 1M-2NT tends to show a balanced hand! grizz: ok, back to this hand ELIZA42: always bid the spades even with 4 and then support? grizz: yes grizz: there might be a 4-4!s fit grizz: and you will never find it if responder does not bid !s right now grizz: ok, let's switch gears now to the E side grizz: is anybody tempted to bid unusual 2NT with the E cards? grizz: red vs white? trafalgar2: not red vs. white grizz: this is the perfect hand for it, but the vul is all wrong ardythe: I am grizz: furthermore, both N and S are unlimited in strength grizz: there is no "safe" suit for EW to bid grizz: part of knowing how to use bidding gadgets is knowing when NOT to use them grizz: and this is a perfect place NOT to use unusual NT pegasus1: Maybe a X (2-suit takeout?) by E grizz: X is not terrible, since they are only on the 2 level Dianne0516: do you have to alert that? grizz: no alert necessary Dianne0516: thnks--was told I had to grizz: though a red X usually will show more hcp than here grizz: it shows the unbid suits grizz: so, what does S do? grizz: first duty would be to support !s, if he had support alexiss: 2!h Ishudav: 2!H trafalgar2: 2!h grizz: not necessarily guaranteeing 6, but strongly suggesting 6 long pegasus1: pt. shy of junping to 3H now that his CJ is wothless grizz: jump rebid is usually a little stronger, say 16-17 pegasus1: Yes, S is 1 pt. shy of naking that jump rebid grizz: now, should W get frisky and bid 3!d? grizz: LOTT says that bid is 'safe' grizz: does it feel 'safe' here? Ishudav: bal hand pegasus1: I think length & strength in opp's suit is a bad thing trafalgar2: no N is still unlimited grizz: y, but ruffing values in !c in the W hand, and in the majors in the E hand grizz: if white vs white, i would venture 3!d as W grizz: but not red vs red, and especially not red vs white pegasus1: me too grizz: NS do not have an announced fit yet grizz: and if they are on a misfit, they will be happy to double and defend grizz: so grizz: what does N do now? alexiss: 4!d trafalgar2: 4!d pegasus1: I count N grizz: any change of suit by N is forcing for 1 round grizz: 3!h is an underbid grizz: 4!h MAY be an underbid! peppygal: are we playing 2/1? Charley174: what about G.F.? grizz: yes, they changed the name of the club but we still play 2/1 here :) Campus61: start cue bidding ELIZA42: 3 clubs or 4nt pegasus1: Now that S has announced holding 6 hearts, I count N's hand as 17-19 in support of Hs grizz: on balance, 3!c seems best to me grizz: keeping the auction open grizz: and announcing strength grizz: there is still time to show the !h fit Campus61: south 3!d grizz: cooperating, in case we are in a cuebid auction now ELIZA42: how 17 -19 grizz: delayed trump support, establishing !h as trumps grizz: cue Ishudav: What is 3!D here pls? 4th SF? grizz: 3!d is an 'all-purpose' bid here analisals: lol Charley174: G.F. grizz: with elements of gf, waiting, and cue Campus61: wouldn't it show a control grizz: N is entitled to view it as 4th suit gf grizz: not a real suit, and not necessarily a control Ishudav: Thx Pete grizz: bit 3!s is definitely a slam try grizz: showing the !SA Campus61: 3!d could be a void grizz: 4!c shows the !cK grizz: 3!s could be a void - first round control, in either case grizz: now we have the stage set for RKC, as it SHOULD be used grizz: which is to keep you OUT of BAD slams, not INTO GOOD ones! grizz: that is, BW or RKC is designed to keep you out of slams off 2 controls grizz: not just to ask for the sake of asking trafalgar2: could S show !s partial after 3!c, looks like N could have 6!ss Campus61: cue bid up the line if you miss one u don't have it grizz: N suggested 5+, but there is no need to bid it now that !hs are agreed as trumps grizz: it's not a true double fit ELIZA42: 4 C is a suit or an A grizz: 4!c is second round control grizz: either stiff or K ELIZA42: and 3 S is a control? grizz: 3!s is first round control Ishudav: Why second? grizz: might be a K in italian methods guyb2: with five controls and the queen, think about seven? Dianne0516: Don't you have to agree on suit bf bidding controls? grizz: 3!c was first round control in this auction, and 4!c was second grizz: generally there is trump agreement before a cuebid sequence grizz: but here we need to apply some bridge logic Dianne0516: But they hadn't agreed on suit when 3 !c was bid grizz: right trafalgar2: thought 3!c was a suit dee_dee_20: N knows there is a fit grizz: here S must know that N has !h support, and didn't want to drop the auction in game grizz: hence the ambiguous 3!c bid Dianne0516: but north could be void grizz: forcing for only 1 round, but clarified later grizz: fwiw, there are a lot of other ways to bid this hand, this is not the only way Charley174: how can s be so sure when e dbl may indicate 12 points Dianne0516: Me too--You have to agree on a suit before controls are bid grizz: in most cuebid auctions that will be the case alexiss: is 4!d splinter here not good because of the missing control in spades? grizz: but 3!h by N would have been NF grizz: 4!d would not be good here because it would eat up all the room necessary for cuebids Dianne0516: I agree, but 3 !c would not be first round control here, I don't think grizz: S can clear things up this way Campus61: 3!h would not have been NF? grizz: S could have passed 3!h by N grizz: as simple suit preference ELIZA42: what other way ELIZA42: not cue bids but blkwd bbo_iac: does the 3!c bid become first round control once the suit is established? grizz: playing straight RKC, answers to 5NT are 0,1,2,3 ELIZA42: reg blkwd grizz: that's how i would interpret it as S, after the 3!h support bid later bbo_iac: ty Charley174: rkc - 6C grizz: the other way to play it is Specific Kings, where responder bids his lowest-ranking K grizz: thusly, showing the !cK grizz: if N had another K, he might be tempted to bid 7 :) Charley174: this bidding more comforting - lol; grizz: and that shows a weakness of Specific Kings - the 5NT bidder doesn't know for sure whether pd has any higher kings Campus61: 4clubs told of the K!c grizz: if S had the !dK, he might bid 6!D to ask whether pd had the !SK, but that's pretty wild stuff ->Campus61: might have been the stiff A Campus61: what is 3clubs if not a cue bid grizz: ok, there's not much to the play grizz: lose the !sK, make 6, on to the next board grizz: and we have a 28 hcp slam grizz: based on a double fit in the majors, with outside controls grizz: any questions? camilleln: how do you know that N is not changing suit with the 3 clubs to create game force yet not having an A? grizz: it's not 100% certain peppygal->Club: ThannkYou, Mr. Rudie, for the extensive explanations that are so informative grizz: S must make some inferences bbo_iac: when he bids the control later? Campus61: tks Pete enjoyed :) and much appreciate ur time and effort grizz: such as: why did pd not support !h earlier? dee_dee_20: with 10 points if N had no A!c would he bid on? grizz: at which bid? bbo_iac: thank you all for coming and especially thank you to Grizz for a most entertaining and informative session Dianne0516: Thanks Pete grizz: my pleasure, thx for attending Charley174: great lesson grizz: hope to see you all next week ELIZA42: sat nt again trafalgar2: thx Pete:) grizz: bye now, and good luck